degen
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Post by degen on Mar 23, 2021 14:54:42 GMT -5
No darling. “In Da Club” is certainly not a pop song, but “I’m With You” most certainly is. Top 40 radio was Avril’s core format, she wasn’t a crossover artist like 50 cent. Her album and singles were submitted as pop vocals at the Grammys. You guys have a way of rewriting history, it’s quite amusing. But not on my watch!
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degen
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Post by degen on Mar 23, 2021 14:58:10 GMT -5
All those artists you mentioned have cited Christina as well. Including dozens more I haven’t even mentioned. This isn’t a competition boo hunny, your initial post implied nobody got more credit than Christina and Beyoncé, which is fundamentally wrong for a lot of reasons (the list is far longer than those two). I gave one example; and believe me I could provide more examples, and more examples of artists inspired by Britney, but that wasn’t the point now was it? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artists_influenced_by_Christina_Aguilera?wprov=sfti1
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Koochie
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Post by Koochie on Mar 23, 2021 15:04:52 GMT -5
And my point is Avril was a crossover act who just happened upon immediate pop success. Her artistry is in the same vein as Fiona Apple or Alanis Morissette, neither of which I would call pop stars even though both have had pop success as one time or another. And if we’re being quite honest, outside of Let Go, Avril really did not have consistent top 40 success either ( Under My Skin only produced one top 10 hit, and the rest either underperformed or didn’t chart on the Hot 100 at all). She just had enough sales and exposure to claim relevance. This isn’t a competition boo hunny, your initial post implied nobody got more credit than Christina and Beyoncé, which is fundamentally wrong for a lot of reasons (the list is far longer than those two). I gave one example; and believe me I could provide more examples, and more examples of artists inspired by Britney, but that wasn’t the point now was it? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artists_influenced_by_Christina_Aguilera?wprov=sfti1let me tell you right now, I do not care.
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degen
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Post by degen on Mar 23, 2021 15:07:04 GMT -5
And my point is Avril was a crossover act who just happened upon immediate pop success. Her artistry is in the same vein as Fiona Apple or Alanis Morissette, neither of which I would call pop stars even though both have had pop success as one time or another. And if we’re being quite honest, outside of Let Go, Avril really did not have consistent top 40 success either ( Under My Skin only produced one top 10 hit, and the rest either underperformed or didn’t chart on the Hot 100 at all). She just had enough sales and exposure to claim relevance. let me tell you right now, I do not care. So she’s a crossover artist from what? If she only had success on Chr/pop and Hot AC, what was her core audience she crossed over from? You can’t “crossover” if you never even landed anywhere beforehand. I’m confused by your statement. She was a 100% pop act, if anything she crossed over from pop to other formats a bit.
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Koochie
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Post by Koochie on Mar 23, 2021 15:13:25 GMT -5
And my point is Avril was a crossover act who just happened upon immediate pop success. Her artistry is in the same vein as Fiona Apple or Alanis Morissette, neither of which I would call pop stars even though both have had pop success as one time or another. And if we’re being quite honest, outside of Let Go, Avril really did not have consistent top 40 success either ( Under My Skin only produced one top 10 hit, and the rest either underperformed or didn’t chart on the Hot 100 at all). She just had enough sales and exposure to claim relevance. let me tell you right now, I do not care. So she’s a crossover artist from what? If she only had success on Chr/pop and Hot AC, what was her core audience she crossed over from? You can’t “crossover” if you never even landed anywhere beforehand. I’m confused by your statement. She was a 100% pop act, if anything she crossed over from pop to other formats a bit. as far as I’m aware she also saw concurrent success on alternative, was marketed almost exclusively as such, and was critically referred to and reviewed as an alternative artist. That she happened to also debut into pop success (with one album) doesn’t preclude her from being an alternative act.
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degen
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Post by degen on Mar 23, 2021 15:25:42 GMT -5
So she’s a crossover artist from what? If she only had success on Chr/pop and Hot AC, what was her core audience she crossed over from? You can’t “crossover” if you never even landed anywhere beforehand. I’m confused by your statement. She was a 100% pop act, if anything she crossed over from pop to other formats a bit. as far as I’m aware she also saw concurrent success on alternative, was marketed almost exclusively as such, and was critically referred to and reviewed as an alternative artist. That she happened to also debut into pop success (with one album) doesn’t preclude her from being an alternative act. Nope. Just checked, “Complicated” never charted on any alternative charts. None of her debut era songs did. So this narrative that she shouldn’t be labeled a pop act is indeed inaccurate. Gotta love a quick fact check.
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degen
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Post by degen on Mar 23, 2021 15:39:44 GMT -5
Upon further research I’m seeing that Avril has never charted on any alternative or rock charts. So I need further clarification on how shes being labeled an alternative act. If anything those formats vigorously ignored her because they knew she would be too pop and uncool for their formats. But y’all were sitting here trying to rewrite history. Glad I caught this.
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Koochie
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Post by Koochie on Mar 23, 2021 15:56:27 GMT -5
I have never seen someone pat themselves on the back so vigorously for something so trivial. “Y’all” is just me, and the only reason I brought it up was to try to have a nuanced discussion about how inconsistent pop is as a genre before you went on some noble quest to defend Avril’s street cred as... a main pop girl. And all that did was turn up that her success on the format after her debut wasn’t even that significant. In that sense I guess you helped answer your own question. as far as I’m aware she also saw concurrent success on alternative, was marketed almost exclusively as such, and was critically referred to and reviewed as an alternative artist. That she happened to also debut into pop success (with one album) doesn’t preclude her from being an alternative act. Nope. Just checked, “Complicated” never charted on any alternative charts. None of her debut era songs did. So this narrative that she shouldn’t be labeled a pop act is indeed inaccurate. Gotta love a quick fact check. 🤷🏼♂️ I can’t find any actual records of this myself so I’ll have to take your word for it, I was going on memory alone. Regardless, that wasn’t even my point. I stand by my argument that she’s not a cut and dry pop artist. She was explicitly marketed as anti-pop, and critics and reviews reflected that in their assessment of her sound. My point was that pop as a genre was so bloated at the time of her debut that shoving her in the same box as the other artists in your OP did not accurately reflect her core audience, influences, or sound which all help to answer the question you asked.
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degen
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Post by degen on Mar 23, 2021 16:08:23 GMT -5
I have never seen someone pat themselves on the back so vigorously for something so trivial. “Y’all” is just me, and the only reason I brought it up was to try to have a nuanced discussion about how inconsistent pop is as a genre before you went on some noble quest to defend Avril’s street cred as... a main pop girl. And all that did was turn up that her success on the format after her debut wasn’t even that significant. In that sense I guess you helped answer your own question. Nope. Just checked, “Complicated” never charted on any alternative charts. None of her debut era songs did. So this narrative that she shouldn’t be labeled a pop act is indeed inaccurate. Gotta love a quick fact check. 🤷🏼♂️ I can’t find any actual records of this myself so I’ll have to take your word for it, I was going on memory alone. Regardless, that wasn’t even my point. I stand by my argument that she’s not a cut and dry pop artist. She was explicitly marketed as anti-pop, and critics and reviews reflected that in their assessment of her sound. My point was that pop as a genre was so bloated at the time of her debut that shoving her in the same box as the other artists in your OP did not accurately reflect her core audience, influences, or sound which all help to answer the question you asked. I thought there was a few of you that claimed Avril wasn’t pop, but maybe I’m wrong. I wouldn’t even compare her to Alanis who originally did debut on the rock/alt charts before crossing over to pop. But that wasn’t the case with Avril. Her label marketed her as a pop act from the getgo. The anti-teen pop demographic, was pop after all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2021 16:13:21 GMT -5
Under My Skin was apparently her last album with Arista before she moved to RCA. I never thought about this until now, but this explains SO much in retrospect. Recording for TBDT started after Kelly had started working on My December, but TBDT was released two months earlier. Most likely, once it became clear that Kelly was not going to ever be on the same page with the execs re: her next release, RCA thought they could simply replace one pop-rock star with the other. That plan backfired on them in the long run and it took Avril's career down with it. I almost said something in my earlier post about how Avril's career panned out very differently from Kelly (and P!nk). Those three were the pop-rock queens - and that's part of the reason I feel like Avril isn't forgotten, per se (impact is a separate matter IMO). That sound was short-lived compared to other 2000s trends, but it was very successful during its moment and you can't remember it without remembering the trifecta that is Let Go/Missundaztood/Breakaway. However, I think Kelly and P!nk largely benefited from the fact that they didn't start their careers in that vein. P!nk's first album was r&b-pop and Kelly immediately stepped off the Idol stage having to contend with a pure manufactured pop image, so shifting into pop-rock was a legit artistic-growth move for both of them. Moving away from it or gently molding it later to keep up with the times was similarly not off-putting; it was a natural evolution for them, within the context of pop music. The general public didn't wed them to a specific sound as much as Avril implicitly was. Girlfriend was very unfortunate but tbh I'm not sure Avril would have ever been afforded the opportunity to pivot much outside of the confines of pop-rock without continuing diminishing returns, regardless of what direction she chose. It didn't help that as hodge-podge as pop was in the 2000s, Avril was more or less seen as part of that hodge-podge. She got a couple of Grammy nods in rock performance, but she never had any history with the alternative or rock charts. She was only 'alt' in that she was positioned as an anti-pop foil to Britney and Christina and the like. But once Brit passed her own career peak and Christina went in a more mature direction with Back 2 Basics, Avril's anti-pop niche became expendable. And Kelly and P!nk were serving that vibe better anyway, because they were smart or lucky enough to tie the anti-pop angle to their personalities only and not their actual music.
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Mar 23, 2021 16:17:37 GMT -5
I'm not sure why you think this? Selena just had a huge hit last year, "Lose You To Love Me." Demi was just on "Monsters" which is still charting and it's done pretty well. Just because someone doesn't have a huge solo hit for a year doesn't mean they're completely forgotten. Selena Gomez has more hits than Avril Lavigne and is a much bigger name. Dreams stays mad. Maybe in her Dreams Avril is more relevant than a Christina Aguilera and Selena Gomez. When are we talking tho? Selena has more hits due to more output of course but obviously any year in the 2010s, Selena is going to be a bigger name because Avril’s peak was 2002-03. So I’m not even sure how a comparison is being made and what the relevance is to the discussion.
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Koochie
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Post by Koochie on Mar 23, 2021 16:19:57 GMT -5
I have never seen someone pat themselves on the back so vigorously for something so trivial. “Y’all” is just me, and the only reason I brought it up was to try to have a nuanced discussion about how inconsistent pop is as a genre before you went on some noble quest to defend Avril’s street cred as... a main pop girl. And all that did was turn up that her success on the format after her debut wasn’t even that significant. In that sense I guess you helped answer your own question. 🤷🏼♂️ I can’t find any actual records of this myself so I’ll have to take your word for it, I was going on memory alone. Regardless, that wasn’t even my point. I stand by my argument that she’s not a cut and dry pop artist. She was explicitly marketed as anti-pop, and critics and reviews reflected that in their assessment of her sound. My point was that pop as a genre was so bloated at the time of her debut that shoving her in the same box as the other artists in your OP did not accurately reflect her core audience, influences, or sound which all help to answer the question you asked. I thought there was a few of you that claimed Avril wasn’t pop, but maybe I’m wrong. I wouldn’t even compare her to Alanis who originally did debut on the rock/alt charts before crossing over to pop. But that wasn’t the case with Avril. Her label marketed her as a pop act from the getgo. The anti-teen pop demographic, was pop after all. I mean, not really? ADELE was arguably marketed as the anti-pop artist of the 2010s when she dropped, but I wouldn’t call her pop in the same vein as Gaga, Kesha, Britney (who was at the time still influential in pop spaces), Rihanna etc. either even though she also saw massive success on the format. The only artist I can think of who was almost entirely smoke and mirrors and didn’t have the material to back up the anti-pop monicker (and I will get flack for this) is Lorde.
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degen
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Post by degen on Mar 23, 2021 16:25:25 GMT -5
I thought there was a few of you that claimed Avril wasn’t pop, but maybe I’m wrong. I wouldn’t even compare her to Alanis who originally did debut on the rock/alt charts before crossing over to pop. But that wasn’t the case with Avril. Her label marketed her as a pop act from the getgo. The anti-teen pop demographic, was pop after all. I mean, not really? ADELE was arguably marketed as the anti-pop artist of the 2010s when she dropped, but I wouldn’t call her pop in the same vein as Gaga, Kesha, Britney (who was at the time still influential in pop spaces), Rihanna etc. either even though she also saw massive success on the format. The only artist I can think of who was almost entirely smoke and mirrors and didn’t have the material to back up the anti-pop monicker (and I will get flack for this) is Lorde. Adele’s music was still pop regardless of her more mature image and subject matter.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2021 16:30:50 GMT -5
in the time it took me to type up and finally hit submit on that post we just had a whole argument over...?
I will say Avril's short time on top > > > > Selena's entire existence (and really, almost all the ex-Disney acts). Let's not get carried away here! It is probably worth pointing out that Avril in her prime was more of an albums artist. She didn't consistently make a big dent on the Hot 100...the fact that her sole #1 hit is the very song that ended up torpedoing the rest of her career should probably tell us something lol. But maybe the fact that she was an albums artist is why one person could reasonably argue that Avril was pop and the other could also reasonably argue that she wasn't really perceived as pop? Like, maybe Avril's first label (Arista) didn't realize how many alt/rock fans were contributing to her album sales, and thus dropped the ball a bit by not sending any of her singles to alternative radio. There probably wasn't any aversion in the industry to labeling her as such, since she was able to score those rock Grammy nods.
I personally wouldn't compare Avril and Christina too hard. Different lanes, and either way both of them wound up with close to the same commercial shelf life.
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degen
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Post by degen on Mar 23, 2021 16:39:49 GMT -5
in the time it took me to type up and finally hit submit on that post we just had a whole argument over...? I will say Avril's short time on top > > > > Selena's entire existence (and really, almost all the ex-Disney acts). Let's not get carried away here! It is probably worth pointing out that Avril in her prime was more of an albums artist. She didn't consistently make a big dent on the Hot 100...the fact that her sole #1 hit is the very song that ended up torpedoing the rest of her career should probably tell us something lol. But maybe the fact that she was an albums artist is why one person could reasonably argue that Avril was pop and the other could also reasonably argue that she wasn't really perceived as pop? Like, maybe Avril's first label (Arista) didn't realize how many alt/rock fans were contributing to her album sales, and thus dropped the ball a bit by not sending any of her singles to alternative radio. There probably wasn't any aversion in the industry to labeling her as such, since she was able to score those rock Grammy nods. I personally wouldn't compare Avril and Christina too hard. Different lanes, and either way both of them wound up with close to the same commercial shelf life. Nah, Christina came a few years before Avril, and lasted on the charts a few years afterwards. By the time Avril debut, Christina already had 5 top 10 hits (which is what Avril would achieve over her entire career, OOP.) As someone pointed out, Christina has double the hits that Avril had. Avril’s last top 10 hit in the U.S. was in 2007. Christina’s last solo top 10 hit was in 2008, but kept her shelf life going well into the 2010s with the hit collaborations. Christina won accolades and is a much bigger star than Avril is. For you to insinuate they had the same shelf life is inaccurate. They certainly did not.
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Post by Love Plastic Love on Mar 23, 2021 17:05:14 GMT -5
Yeah it is kind of confusing because she was so big for a short time period and now she feels so forgotten that even I forget her sometimes. I literally cannot name the last time I ever heard any of her music anywhere for any reason. I think that is for a few different reasons. She didn't find a way to extend her star beyond her hits. Almost everyone else mentioned has something that kept them going-The Voice, a Vegas show, movies, collaborations that were hits, major public performances, other commercial endeavors, etc. I feel like Avril is radio silence until she releases a cd that gets promoted for like, a month and then she is gone again. It seems like a major component of maintaining a type of star status after the commercial success fades is these other endeavors, shows, movies, collabs, tours, etc. There are other issues too though and these will be pretty subjective and I understand that, ha ha. I don't think she has created truly great music in awhile. I also went to go see her on tour and it was pretty fucking terrible. Those two elements really help maintain a fanbase, even a smaller one. As a hardcore Avril fan, I haven't seen much, live or musically, that makes me want to keep up with her.
My radio station is basically an oldies station for 1990s-2000s pop right now and I hear tons of Christina, Britney, and Pink. Never a single Avril song, not even Complicated, which is strange.
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degen
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Post by degen on Mar 23, 2021 17:12:57 GMT -5
Yeah it is kind of confusing because she was so big for a short time period and now she feels so forgotten that even I forget her sometimes. I literally cannot name the last time I ever heard any of her music anywhere for any reason. I think that is for a few different reasons. She didn't find a way to extend her star beyond her hits. Almost everyone else mentioned has something that kept them going-The Voice, a Vegas show, movies, collaborations that were hits, major public performances, other commercial endeavors, etc. I feel like Avril is radio silence until she releases a cd that gets promoted for like, a month and then she is gone again. It seems like a major component of maintaining a type of star status after the commercial success fades is these other endeavors, shows, movies, collabs, tours, etc. There are other issues too though and these will be pretty subjective and I understand that, ha ha. I don't think she has created truly great music in awhile. I also went to go see her on tour and it was pretty f**king terrible. Those two elements really help maintain a fanbase, even a smaller one. As a hardcore Avril fan, I haven't seen much, live or musically, that makes me want to keep up with her. My radio station is basically an oldies station for 1990s-2000s pop right now and I hear tons of Christina, Britney, and Pink. Never a single Avril song, not even Complicated, which is strange. And I think that has a lot to do with her having an unlikeable personality. She was rude as hell during her debut era, and I guess that worked then. But teen angst doesn’t last. Her fans grew up and matured. She continued doing the “I’m a rebel angry girl who is going to bully the pop blondes” shtick and it got old quick. She lost her star power pretty quickly because of it. And then in 2007 she was trying to be that blonde pop girl she made fun of years back. The whole thing was a miscalculation. Look at someone like Billie Elish who we can say is basically the Avril of the early 2020s. Billie has a much more likeable personality and is very humble. Avril was so ungrateful. I even remember one time she dissed Kelly Clarkson at the VMA’s, like she didn’t want to be around her because Kelly came off a win from a reality competition show. Luckily Kelly got the last laugh because her career went far. Avril Lavigne would come off as an angry bully in today’s climate. Avril once said Christina acted like she didn’t exist when they shared an elevator ride together. I mean, why do you think that is girl? You are sitting at the VMA’s giving every pop blonde girl a nasty look. Maybe that’s why she’s a thing of the past.
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BDGeek
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Post by BDGeek on Mar 23, 2021 17:21:51 GMT -5
It didn't help that as hodge-podge as pop was in the 2000s, Avril was more or less seen as part of that hodge-podge. She got a couple of Grammy nods in rock performance, but she never had any history with the alternative or rock charts. She was only 'alt' in that she was positioned as an anti-pop foil to Britney and Christina and the like. But once Brit passed her own career peak and Christina went in a more mature direction with Back 2 Basics, Avril's anti-pop niche became expendable. And Kelly and P!nk were serving that vibe better anyway, because they were smart or lucky enough to tie the anti-pop angle to their personalities only and not their actual music.I think this point is really key to why all the other artists you mentioned ended up bigger stars with more mainstream longevity than Avril did. Christina built a brand on her voice with forays into TV and film, long after her solo chart success. Kelly's done something similar, keeping her affable personality at the forefront. P!nk really found her niche as a "cool mom" and touring powerhouse. And Britney's always kept focus on her (sometimes willingly, sometimes not) whether girl next door, liberated woman, tabloid queen, or comeback story. Avril never really did any of that. She dabbled in some under-the-radar film and TV work, but she's never really capitalized on her brand in a way that would breed longevity. She started out as angsty and rebellious with Let Go, got a bit more contemplative with Under My Skin, then went back to being bratty with The Best Damn Thing and... never really left that lane. She kind of capitalized on her brand with "Here's To Never Growing Up" and "Rock N Roll," but not in a way that really showed personal or musical growth. Basically, while all her peers grew up with their fanbases, Avril seemingly stayed a kid. Nothing wrong with that if that's what she wants to do, but it doesn't bode for high-profile, long-term success. EDIT: Love Plastic Love and degen beat me to a lot of these points before I'd finished this post. Oops.
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RoseColoredGirl
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Post by RoseColoredGirl on Mar 23, 2021 17:23:05 GMT -5
Basically, while all her peers grew up with their fanbases, Avril seemingly stayed a kid. Nothing wrong with that if that's what she wants to do, but it doesn't bode for high-profile, long-term success. She took her own lyrics from "Here's to Never Growing Up" too seriously haha.
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Mar 23, 2021 17:30:51 GMT -5
Yeah it is kind of confusing because she was so big for a short time period and now she feels so forgotten that even I forget her sometimes. I literally cannot name the last time I ever heard any of her music anywhere for any reason. I think that is for a few different reasons. She didn't find a way to extend her star beyond her hits. Almost everyone else mentioned has something that kept them going-The Voice, a Vegas show, movies, collaborations that were hits, major public performances, other commercial endeavors, etc. I feel like Avril is radio silence until she releases a cd that gets promoted for like, a month and then she is gone again. It seems like a major component of maintaining a type of star status after the commercial success fades is these other endeavors, shows, movies, collabs, tours, etc. There are other issues too though and these will be pretty subjective and I understand that, ha ha. I don't think she has created truly great music in awhile. I also went to go see her on tour and it was pretty f**king terrible. Those two elements really help maintain a fanbase, even a smaller one. As a hardcore Avril fan, I haven't seen much, live or musically, that makes me want to keep up with her. My radio station is basically an oldies station for 1990s-2000s pop right now and I hear tons of Christina, Britney, and Pink. Never a single Avril song, not even Complicated, which is strange. And I think that has a lot to do with her having an unlikeable personality. She was rude as hell during her debut era, and I guess that worked then. But teen angst doesn’t last. Her fans grew up and matured. She continued doing the “I’m a rebel angry girl who is going to bully the pop blondes” shtick and it got old quick. She lost her star power pretty quickly because of it. And then in 2007 she was trying to be that blonde pop girl she made fun of years back. The whole thing was a miscalculation. Look at someone like Billie Elish who we can say is basically the Avril of the early 2020s. Billie has a much more likeable personality and is very humble. Avril was so ungrateful. I even remember one time she dissed Kelly Clarkson at the VMA’s, like she didn’t want to be around her because Kelly came off a win from a reality competition show. Luckily Kelly got the last laugh because her career went far. Avril Lavigne would come off as an angry bully in today’s climate. Avril once said Christina acted like she didn’t exist when they shared an elevator ride together. I mean, why do you think that is girl? You are sitting at the VMA’s giving every pop blonde girl a nasty look. Maybe that’s why she’s a thing of the past. Are we going to cite Avril’s badditude as a reason for her lack of continued success and pretend Christina isn’t known as being the rudest singer in pop?
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Dreams
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Post by Dreams on Mar 23, 2021 17:36:38 GMT -5
And I think that has a lot to do with her having an unlikeable personality. She was rude as hell during her debut era, and I guess that worked then. But teen angst doesn’t last. Her fans grew up and matured. She continued doing the “I’m a rebel angry girl who is going to bully the pop blondes” shtick and it got old quick. She lost her star power pretty quickly because of it. And then in 2007 she was trying to be that blonde pop girl she made fun of years back. The whole thing was a miscalculation. Look at someone like Billie Elish who we can say is basically the Avril of the early 2020s. Billie has a much more likeable personality and is very humble. Avril was so ungrateful. I even remember one time she dissed Kelly Clarkson at the VMA’s, like she didn’t want to be around her because Kelly came off a win from a reality competition show. Luckily Kelly got the last laugh because her career went far. Avril Lavigne would come off as an angry bully in today’s climate. Avril once said Christina acted like she didn’t exist when they shared an elevator ride together. I mean, why do you think that is girl? You are sitting at the VMA’s giving every pop blonde girl a nasty look. Maybe that’s why she’s a thing of the past. Are we going to cite Avril’s badditude as a reason for her lack of continued success and pretend Christina isn’t known as being the rudest singer in pop? LOL took the words right out of my mouth! Aguilera is as likable as a mosquito, far and away the most obnoxious singer in pop. Glass houses...
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Mar 23, 2021 17:36:43 GMT -5
What’s frustrating about Avril is that her albums do show signs of growth and wanting to have a more mature sound but they’re always tacked with the “Here’s to Never Growing Up”, “What The Hell”, “Dumb Blonde” default song that falls in line with the bratty image created for her with “Girlfriend.” Her self-titled album (2013) left enough to be desired but Goodbye Lullaby (2011) and Head Above Water (2019) both had solid pop/rock songs that were more Under My Skin/Let Go than their respective singles would suggest. They probably wouldn’t make much of a difference for her if the non-brat songs were pushed as singles, but I think the impression that she’s a forever bratty teen is purposefully done but also incorrect.
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degen
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Post by degen on Mar 23, 2021 17:36:53 GMT -5
And I think that has a lot to do with her having an unlikeable personality. She was rude as hell during her debut era, and I guess that worked then. But teen angst doesn’t last. Her fans grew up and matured. She continued doing the “I’m a rebel angry girl who is going to bully the pop blondes” shtick and it got old quick. She lost her star power pretty quickly because of it. And then in 2007 she was trying to be that blonde pop girl she made fun of years back. The whole thing was a miscalculation. Look at someone like Billie Elish who we can say is basically the Avril of the early 2020s. Billie has a much more likeable personality and is very humble. Avril was so ungrateful. I even remember one time she dissed Kelly Clarkson at the VMA’s, like she didn’t want to be around her because Kelly came off a win from a reality competition show. Luckily Kelly got the last laugh because her career went far. Avril Lavigne would come off as an angry bully in today’s climate. Avril once said Christina acted like she didn’t exist when they shared an elevator ride together. I mean, why do you think that is girl? You are sitting at the VMA’s giving every pop blonde girl a nasty look. Maybe that’s why she’s a thing of the past. Are we going to cite Avril’s badditude as a reason for her lack of continued success and pretend Christina isn’t known as being the rudest singer in pop? Christina’s “rude” and outspoken image worked for her during the “Stripped” era. But she left a lot of that behind in the following years. Her B2B era was very mature and she wasn’t rude, but continued building on her “Diva” persona which worked for her voice and brand. We all love a classic big voiced Diva in the line of a Whitney or Mariah. That was about as rude as Christina got. Plus in the 2010s, she wasn’t rude at all and became one of the fave Tv personalities. She is very humble now. I never saw Avril mature the way Christina did...but maybe that’s because she wasn’t afforded the chance to do it.
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Mar 23, 2021 17:39:09 GMT -5
Are we going to cite Avril’s badditude as a reason for her lack of continued success and pretend Christina isn’t known as being the rudest singer in pop? Christina’s “rude” and outspoken image worked for her during the “Stripped” era. But she left a lot of that behind in the following years. Her B2B era was very mature and she wasn’t rude, but continued building on her “Diva” persona which worked for her voice and brand. We all love a classic big voiced Diva in the line of a Whitney or Mariah. That was about as rude as Christina got. www.nickiswift.com/136754/stars-who-cant-stand-christina-aguilera/
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degen
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Post by degen on Mar 23, 2021 17:43:40 GMT -5
Christina’s “rude” and outspoken image worked for her during the “Stripped” era. But she left a lot of that behind in the following years. Her B2B era was very mature and she wasn’t rude, but continued building on her “Diva” persona which worked for her voice and brand. We all love a classic big voiced Diva in the line of a Whitney or Mariah. That was about as rude as Christina got. www.nickiswift.com/136754/stars-who-cant-stand-christina-aguilera/Lol okay. Half that s**t is BS. So Christina wasn’t supposed to respond to Eminem the way she did when he slut shamed her? What Eminem did to Christina wouldn’t fly today. No wonder you are defending Avril Lavigne, because you are still stuck on the ways of the past.
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Koochie
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Post by Koochie on Mar 23, 2021 17:53:22 GMT -5
Christina’s “rude” and outspoken image worked for her during the “Stripped” era. But she left a lot of that behind in the following years. Her B2B era was very mature and she wasn’t rude, but continued building on her “Diva” persona which worked for her voice and brand. We all love a classic big voiced Diva in the line of a Whitney or Mariah. That was about as rude as Christina got. www.nickiswift.com/136754/stars-who-cant-stand-christina-aguilera/I like how this thread is slowly devolving into links to lists of artists who are either inspired by or hate Christina Aguilera and this thread isn't even about her. What year is it again?
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Post by Positive Tension on Mar 23, 2021 17:55:53 GMT -5
I think it's a shame she faded so fast after The Best Damn Thing. However, I don't know if "Girlfriend," despite its massive success, was the beginning of the downfall or if it was due to the poor second single choice of "When You're Gone." I think she could've milked more success from that album had she chosen "I Can Do Better" or "Runaway" as the second single. 2007 was not the time to release a ballad or slower song as the 2nd single, so "When You're Gone" was a poor single choice. Ideally, the third single would've been "Innocence" as it is a more mature song. Then again, maybe her drastic image change and release of "Girlfriend" (despite its success) turned too many of her core audience away, and nothing would've smashed as the second single.
It also didn't help that Avril waited 4 years to release a follow up album. I was a fan of Avril's before then, and even I lost interest at that point.
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Mar 23, 2021 18:15:02 GMT -5
Lol okay. Half that s**t is BS. So Christina wasn’t supposed to respond to Eminem the way she did when he slut shamed her? What Eminem did to Christina wouldn’t fly today. No wonder you are defending Avril Lavigne, because you are still stuck on the ways of the past. So one example cancels out the others? Okay genius.
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.indulgecountry
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Post by .indulgecountry on Mar 23, 2021 20:59:24 GMT -5
Christina’s “rude” and outspoken image worked for her during the “Stripped” era. But she left a lot of that behind in the following years. Her B2B era was very mature and she wasn’t rude, but continued building on her “Diva” persona which worked for her voice and brand. We all love a classic big voiced Diva in the line of a Whitney or Mariah. That was about as rude as Christina got. www.nickiswift.com/136754/stars-who-cant-stand-christina-aguilera/This list is at the very least as equally valid as trotting out recording artists like Ava Max and Selena Gomez as being examples of those who were supposedly greatly inspired by the music of Xtina.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2021 20:59:24 GMT -5
in the time it took me to type up and finally hit submit on that post we just had a whole argument over...? I will say Avril's short time on top > > > > Selena's entire existence (and really, almost all the ex-Disney acts). Let's not get carried away here! It is probably worth pointing out that Avril in her prime was more of an albums artist. She didn't consistently make a big dent on the Hot 100...the fact that her sole #1 hit is the very song that ended up torpedoing the rest of her career should probably tell us something lol. But maybe the fact that she was an albums artist is why one person could reasonably argue that Avril was pop and the other could also reasonably argue that she wasn't really perceived as pop? Like, maybe Avril's first label (Arista) didn't realize how many alt/rock fans were contributing to her album sales, and thus dropped the ball a bit by not sending any of her singles to alternative radio. There probably wasn't any aversion in the industry to labeling her as such, since she was able to score those rock Grammy nods. I personally wouldn't compare Avril and Christina too hard. Different lanes, and either way both of them wound up with close to the same commercial shelf life. Nah, Christina came a few years before Avril, and lasted on the charts a few years afterwards. By the time Avril debut, Christina already had 5 top 10 hits (which is what Avril would achieve over her entire career, OOP.) As someone pointed out, Christina has double the hits that Avril had. Avril’s last top 10 hit in the U.S. was in 2007. Christina’s last solo top 10 hit was in 2008, but kept her shelf life going well into the 2010s with the hit collaborations. Christina won accolades and is a much bigger star than Avril is. For you to insinuate they had the same shelf life is inaccurate. They certainly did not. To clarify, when I referred to their shelf life I was only talking about the time span in which they were relevant, not a sales comparison (Christina certainly had more sales than Avril did, and in general just more output). Accolades certainly don't have anything to do with that, as plenty of people can get accolades and great reviews while selling next to nothing. Christina debuted in 1999 and her last certified album (her GH) was released in 2008, so about nine years. Avril debuted in 2002 and her last certified album was Goodbye Lullaby in 2011, also nine years. How one debates the length of their shelf lives is admittedly very subjective. I went with the last certified album cutoff, but if you want to get highly technical about it and focus on singles, Christina's last chart appearance at ALL was in 2013 (Say Something and Feel This Moment). Both singles were top 10 hits, but neither were on any album of hers and I'm not really sure why she got equal billing on Say So because she's not actually on the track that much and it's not like her name was a selling point by then. Avril's last top 10 hit was Girlfriend in 2007, but she's had two more top 20 hits (What The Hell in 2011, Here's To Never Growing Up in 2013) and several low-charting singles since then, with her last appearance on the chart in 2018 with Head Above Water (#64). And funny enough, despite both you and I pointing out earlier that Avril never charted on alternative or rock herself, she did just make her first entry on both those charts last month, as a feature on Mod Sun's Flames (an emo/punk-pop song). tbh It looks like, if there was any mistake in me saying their shelf lives were similar, it was in me not giving Avril enough credit. Rather ironically, despite Avril being the seemingly more forgotten one, she's also the one who would likely have much better odds of charting at all if both of them were to release a lead single today.
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