Pulse
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Post by Pulse on Feb 2, 2008 16:47:18 GMT -5
I don't mean to knock Mariah or anything, its just something Ive noticed. I rarely hear her songs referenced in pop culture (movies, books etc). I never hear her name mentioned in any movies either. There was this magazine that had all these singers in animated version, yet it still kinda looks like the singer, and everyone at work could point out Madonna, Michael Jackson, Diana Ross, Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson, Elton John, even Celine Dion yet no one could indentify Mariah. Is she not interesting enough? And yes, I do consider Borderline and Rock With You classics. When you heard Chris Tucker sing it on Rush Hour, EVERYONE knew what he was singing and who he was imitating. I doubt he would sing Vision of Love because the director would say "no, ain't nobody gonna know what you're doing". And whenever radio playlists go back to 80s music, Borderline is always there. When its back to 90s time, I hear some BSB songs, Spice Girls, Kiss Me, I Will Always Love You, Titanic song, Baby One More Time, but no Mariah eventhough she dominated the decade. Its not a knock, but Im just curious. What do you mean EVERYONE? I doubt "EVERYONE" knew that song. Similarly, I doubt everyone would be left in a state of total confusion and shock if he had sung Vision of Love. I know you're not trying to knock and that you're curious, but I think you're definitely not looking at the bigger picture here, and probably basing it more on anecdotal experiences.
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Pulse
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Post by Pulse on Feb 2, 2008 16:47:39 GMT -5
Slinky wasn't trying to dispell the comments made about Mariah's alledged lack of cultural significance. The title of this thread happens to be "Why Are Mariah Songs Forgettable?" Slinky's evidence may not be major, it still work against the base idea of this thread. Many of her singles receive heavy recurrent plays. Exactly. Cultural significance can mean so many different things. You can argue cultural significance of those 4 artists for hours and not come up with a concrete answer, but AC airplay provids some solid evidence that Mariah's songs are not "forgotten", at least not moreso than any other artist. AC is perhaps the most tested format in the country. You can bet that if the audience considered them throwaways, they wouldn't be testing well, and wouldn't be played. Agreed
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John77
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Post by John77 on Feb 2, 2008 17:40:13 GMT -5
I strongly disagree with the title of this thread... on the contrary the variety in her big hits is what has made them all very memorable. I remember practically every song she released from 1990-1997 and those 2005 forward. It's those years between '97 and '05 that were forgettable, and with good reason - she didn't put out any good songs.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Feb 2, 2008 17:42:35 GMT -5
^Mariah (unlike Madonna and Cyndi Lauper) never really put any culturally-lasting "hooks" into her songs...thinkin it was more about her voice (at least in the 90s) Which is exactly why they are timeless, while those songs of Madonna and Cyndi are not.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Feb 2, 2008 20:20:14 GMT -5
I, too, think that the title of this thread is misleading. I wouldn't call Mariah or her songs "forgettable" as much as she's not as prominent in pop culture the way some of her peers are considering how successful she has been on the charts since the beginning.
But I think she lacks variety in a lot of her songs. It's almost a case of, you heard one, you heard them all when it comes to her upbeats and her slower tracks, with a few exceptions. That and her music is very dated and specific to the time it was released in. Not that that's a bad thing but it's probably why most of her songs don't have lasting power with the exception of a few songs.
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Stan4Jan
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Post by Stan4Jan on Feb 3, 2008 11:56:52 GMT -5
i don't think they are forgettable.. :s
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Player211
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Post by Player211 on Feb 3, 2008 13:55:54 GMT -5
One poster said that Mariah's cultural significance is small. In responce, those airplay numbers were posted to suggest otherwise. Therefore, my point is that airplay doesn't indicate whether an artist is culturally significant. So are you sayin that she's not culturally significant? (just curious) She is significant, but she hasn't received the level of cultural significance that her success warrants
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BrokenArrow
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Post by BrokenArrow on Feb 3, 2008 15:11:11 GMT -5
Interesting the comment about American Idol/Idol like shows worldwide.
I could name loads of Whitney/Celine/Xtina etc songs being sung on these shows.
I am struggling to recall any performances of Mariah numbers except for "Without you", which, as already pointed out, is not a Mariah song.
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Caution
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Post by Caution on Feb 3, 2008 15:58:48 GMT -5
Interesting the comment about American Idol/Idol like shows worldwide. I could name loads of Whitney/Celine/Xtina etc songs being sung on these shows. I am struggling to recall any performances of Mariah numbers except for "Without you", which, as already pointed out, is not a Mariah song. Leona Lewis and Kelly Clarkson were clearly influenced by Mariah...
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Feb 3, 2008 16:03:07 GMT -5
So are you sayin that she's not culturally significant? (just curious) She is significant, but she hasn't received the level of cultural significance that her success warrants Lol (I don't even like her btw)...but I think she does have huge cultural significance overall (her voice, performances, etc.)...it's just that her individual songs aren't that culturally significant IMO - I think a massive amount of people know her voice when they hear it on the radio, even if they can't remember which song it is
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Feb 3, 2008 16:05:03 GMT -5
^Mariah (unlike Madonna and Cyndi Lauper) never really put any culturally-lasting "hooks" into her songs...thinkin it was more about her voice (at least in the 90s) Which is exactly why they are timeless, while those songs of Madonna and Cyndi are not. Wait...I def. think Time After Time is a "timeless" song (prob. one of the most replayed 80s songs on AC and HAC of the past 20 years)...same with "Crazy For You" and "Borderline" But other Cyndi and Madonna songs def. aren't timeless (She Bop, Erotica, etc.)
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BrokenArrow
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Post by BrokenArrow on Feb 3, 2008 16:10:23 GMT -5
Interesting the comment about American Idol/Idol like shows worldwide. I could name loads of Whitney/Celine/Xtina etc songs being sung on these shows. I am struggling to recall any performances of Mariah numbers except for "Without you", which, as already pointed out, is not a Mariah song. Leona Lewis and Kelly Clarkson were clearly influenced by Mariah... Clearly, but why no Mariah songs ? Does she prohibit her songs being used on these shows?
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Post by Positive Tension on Feb 3, 2008 22:20:18 GMT -5
Yes, though there were a few rare instances where they were allowed to be performed. One woman a few seasons back (Heather Cox, I think?) sang and butchered "Hero" in the semi-finals.
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hidizzyguy
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Post by hidizzyguy on Feb 4, 2008 12:48:19 GMT -5
I agree this whole thread is just weird...
People generally don't cover mariah songs because, well, I think her songs are sung the best they possibly could be on a technical standpoint...... for any other artist to cover a mariah song, they would have to completely rearrange it..... which, would defeat its purpose, since almost all of her songs are based off of arrangement and melody....
Mariah doesn't have an image that stands out in society... she's a pretty normal girl, and that's part of the reason why there's no need for her to be used in a movie to be portrayed - or even for her to standout in a line-up of artists.... she didn't base her career on personality/image/style...... and the whole sex kitten image is a waste of time to be argued - cause all girls want to be sexy and show off their butts and boobs......
Mariah has just WAY TOO MANY hits for them to be remembered..... that's part of her problem... yes, we all know Hero and We Belong Together and Honey and One Sweet Day.... but when your hits run 15 years..... yes, some of them will be forgotten... especially when you think of them in the context of your own life and which were meaningful to you..... uptempos, midtempos, ballads.... even I get them confused...
Lastly, Mariah is a singer. She will be remembered for her voice. Even though you might not remember the titles of all her songs, what year they came out, or how high they charted - you know that voice, you know that range, you know that whistle register, and you know that she comes out with good ballads and midtempos - and I bet if any of her hits were to come on the radio - you'd be able to sing along with them word for word.
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Post by die Lotterie on Feb 4, 2008 13:43:37 GMT -5
This is a really stupid thread, in my opinion.
All artists that have had careers as long as Mariahs, or even longer are all going to have their share of forgotten songs and hits. It's a given.
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K Newman
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Post by K Newman on Feb 4, 2008 19:41:32 GMT -5
I think the title is misleading and the word "forgettable" may be taken as an insult to her but I do agree with the underlying point. She has had 17 year career with tons of hits, but I really do believe that if you ask the average 30 year person to name as much Mariah songs they can, they'll tell "Hero" and maybe "Always Be My Baby" (and if its November/December they'll certainly think of "All I Want For Christmas"). After that, its a struggle. Some might say "hey wasn't there that song with Boyz2men?" or even "wait I know theres one with a rapper right?". I agree with the person that said she doesn't really have something thats hers and represents who she is. She doesn't have much of an identity and much charisma and her songs follow that. They're just there.
As for the others, if you ask the same people to name Madonna songs, they'll probably come up with Holiday, LAV, LAP, MG, Borderline, PDP, ITG, Vogue, ROL and could do it with ease and in 30 seconds. With Whitney, they'd come up with SAMLFY, HWIK, GLOA, IWDWSB, IWALY, IHN, IEW again with ease. With Michael Jackson, they'd come with Beat It, Thriller, Billie Jean, WBSS, SC, TWYMMF, RTT and even his Jackson 5 songs.
Someone mentioned that all her songs sound the same. Thats true but the same is true with The Supremes yet all their hits are a part of pop culture. Mariah's isn't.
Someone mentioned that she's had so many hits. The same is true of Madonna yet that doesn't stop her from having memorable songs.
Its an interesting discussion but its so damn hard to explain.
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K Newman
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Post by K Newman on Feb 4, 2008 19:43:39 GMT -5
This review by Rolling Stone is a good read and touches on this subject: The downside of Glitter is the downside of all Mariah Carey albums. They're called "ballads," and Mariah still likes them big and goopy, with zero melodic or emotional punch. Glitter's gratifyingly few ballads are better than usual, especially "Lead the Way." But they make you wonder why a singer with such a famous voice can't resist such anonymous material. Her hits are always huge, but when they're gone, they're gone: Mariah still has yet to score the kind of hit that goes down in history. Only her hardest-core fans can tell "Dreamlover" from "Fantasy" from "Honey" from "Heartbreaker," and although she once had a song that stayed at Number One for sixteen weeks, you can't even remember how it went, much less what it was called. Whitney had her "I Will Always Love You," and Celine had her "My Heart Will Go On," but Mariah still hasn't found her theme song, the one people will remember her voice by. Glitter is good enough to make you hope she finds it. It's not too late, either - Whitney was a veteran if not a has-been when she hit her peak with The Bodyguard. It's nowhere near unthinkable that Mariah, for all her success, is just now starting to get her music together. Wouldn't that be something? www.rollingstone.com/artists/mariahcarey/albums/album/148748/review/5942831/glitter
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K Newman
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Post by K Newman on Feb 4, 2008 19:50:13 GMT -5
Mariah Carey's songs aren't any more or any less forgettable than songs by Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson, Toni Braxton, etc. And I also disagree with those who claim her tracks are far too similar to be remembered. It's pop music and as much as I value & appreciate it's simplistic brilliance, the genre's consistent hitmakers hit's never really differentiate that much to begin with. This is an interesting argument but not an original one. It has been brought up before to create a bias and, I'll admit, one that I accidently fell for in the past. I'm not implying that was anyone's intention but to bring foward a question that almost claims to be factual without substantially backing themselves up is questionable. I'm in total agreement with this statement. What's great about this is that we can actually see the data about what AC stations are playing, and it totally disproves the entire premise of the question: Whitney Songs in the AC Top 1000 Gold and Recurrents: 187 I Will Always Love Y... 1992 244 380 I Wanna Dance With S... 1987 147 466 How Will I Know 1985 114 557 I'm Every Woman 1992 85 602 So Emotional 1987 73 646 All At Once 1987 66 723 I Have Nothing 1992 56 785 spins total Madonna Songs in the AC Top 1000 Gold and Recurrents: 128 Borderline 1984 297 152 Holiday 1983 271 167 Crazy For You 1985 260 169 Into The Groove 1985 259 304 Like A Prayer 1989 185 369 Lucky Star 1984 153 475 Open Your Heart 1986 112 516 Vogue 1990 96 578 La Isla Bonita 1987 79 686 Live To Tell 1986 61 689 Who's That Girl 1987 60 868 True Blue 1986 40 recurr Jump 2 1875 spins total Mariah Songs in the AC Top 1000 Gold and Recurrents: 255 Hero 1993 212 322 Always Be My Baby 1995 176 333 I'll Be There 1992 170 375 Emotions 1991 149 477 Dreamlover 1993 112 755 Without You 1993 53 recurr We Belong Together 310 recurr Fly Like A Bird 4 1186 spins total So bottom line, Madonna rules the gold airplay charts with all of her 80's stuff. Mariah is next, about 700 spins behind, with the songs being her early 90's stuff + WBT. Whitney is way behind both of them, so perhaps the question should be why Whitney doesn't resonate with the public the way the other two do. Michael Jackson, who the original poster also mentioned, is barely a footnote on AC compared to the women. He only has 4 songs in the top 1000 and they combine for 237 spins. Michael really only has 4? Wow. Where did you find this info? Do you have a link? I think part of the reason is that both Michael and Whitney have ruined their images, yet still they have songs that are part of our culture. Also if you include Urban AC and Hot AC, both their numbers would be in line with the others. I never would have guessed that "Emotions" does better than "Without You" or that "All At Once" nad "So Emotional" does better than "Greatest Love of All". and "Vogue" seems kinda low.
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Lowe
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Post by Lowe on Feb 4, 2008 20:43:26 GMT -5
I always thought Mariah was not revolutionary and that her cultural impact was not big. The only thing Mariah is known for is her voice and her many #1 hits imo... Madonna, Whitney, Michael, a lot of those people are living legends. She is not a legend or even a cultural icon like many of her fans like to make her to be. I cant think to anything she really added to the world besides her music. I would call many of her #1s forgettable as well... The only thing that kept her as long as she is her voice and her team...
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Player211
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Post by Player211 on Feb 4, 2008 22:13:48 GMT -5
I cant think to anything she really added to the world besides her music... LMAO! . . . The Rolling Stone review that was posted sums it up well I think.
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Post by carriefan0209 on Feb 4, 2008 22:36:23 GMT -5
I think Mariah does have a signature song though in either Hero or We Belong Together.
But I also feel she is extremely overrated....never gonna forgive sista for that mess shake it off! ;)
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John77
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Post by John77 on Feb 7, 2008 23:15:33 GMT -5
never gonna forgive sista for that mess shake it off! ;) One of the worst #1 hits ever IMHO...
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hidizzyguy
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Post by hidizzyguy on Feb 7, 2008 23:22:55 GMT -5
Shake It Off never got to No. 1
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Feb 8, 2008 22:08:05 GMT -5
Yah it did. It made an impressive 7-1* jump just a week after 'We Belong Together' had fallen out...! Even I was shocked!!
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mariahruleme
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Post by mariahruleme on Feb 8, 2008 23:03:42 GMT -5
ok her song Hero,Fantasy,Always Be My Baby,We Belong Together are all her signature songs and everyone knows those songs so what is the point of this thread again
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Post by RihannaFANยฒ=ColdUmbrella! on Feb 9, 2008 1:14:15 GMT -5
shake it off was one of mariah's best ,dont hate ppl.
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Soulsista
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Post by Soulsista on Feb 9, 2008 8:33:44 GMT -5
Sorry, I can't agree with that. I love Mariah and all, but SIO wasn't that great. Thank goodness Kanye kept it from reaching #1 on the Hot 100.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Feb 9, 2008 12:38:43 GMT -5
ok her song Hero,Fantasy,Always Be My Baby,We Belong Together are all her signature songs and everyone knows those songs so what is the point of this thread again Yeah can't remember the last time I heard Fantasy on the radio (or Hero) but maybe it's just a regional thing lol
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John77
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Post by John77 on Feb 9, 2008 12:43:56 GMT -5
ok her song Hero,Fantasy,Always Be My Baby,We Belong Together are all her signature songs and everyone knows those songs so what is the point of this thread again Yeah can't remember the last time I heard Fantasy on the radio (or Hero) but maybe it's just a regional thing lol Well, KBIG and KOST both play "Fantasy" here...
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John77
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Post by John77 on Feb 9, 2008 12:44:16 GMT -5
This is a really stupid thread, in my opinion. All artists that have had careers as long as Mariahs, or even longer are all going to have their share of forgotten songs and hits. It's a given.
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