Are Mariah Songs Forgettable? Why?

[mrmister]

When I look through Mariah's career, I noticed that she has had so few classic and memorable songs. Really the only songs that can be called true classics are "All I Want For Christmas" and MAYBE "Hero" since it seems to be popular at AC. But for someone who has had almost 20 years career, and 17#1 hits, almost 200 million records sold, her lack of cultural significance is astonishing.

Other comparable artists have plenty of memorable songs.
Madonna has "Holiday", "Borderline", "Like A Virgin", "Papa Dont Preach", "Like A Prayer", "Open Your Heart", "Vogue", "Ray of Light" and EVITA is still played regularly on TV

Whitney Houston has "Saving All My Love", "How Will I Know", "Greatest Love of All", "I Wanna Dance...", "I Will Always Love You", "I'm Every Woman", "I Have Nothing", plus other R&B classics ("You Give Good Love", "Exhale") and THE BODYGUAD and WAITING TO EXHALE still get played regularly on TV.

Michael Jackson has "Wanna Be Starting", "Rock With You", Thriller", "Beat It", "Billie Jean", "The Way You Make Me Feel" and I could go one.

Diana Ross, Aretha Franklin, The Beatles, Elvis, Elton John all have plenty of memorable songs.

What is it about Mariah songs that become #1 htis yet when they're gone, they're forgotten and don't resonate the same way with teh general public like others?

[K.]

I don't know. Just off the top of my head, I can list Vision of Love, I Don't Wanna Cry, Someday, Emotions, Make it Happen, Can't Let Go, Without You, Anytime You Need a Friend, Hero, Forever, Fantasy, Always Be My Baby, Dreamlover, We Belong Together, Shake it Off, I Still Believe . . . and I know the lyrics to most of them. I would hardly call her songs forgettable.

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

I don't know if it's so much the songs that are forgettable or even Mariah herself but your mention of her being not so much "culturally significant" is an interesting thought that I never thought of before. Considering her sales and success on the charts, she doesn't seem to have much significance in culture outside of music the way the Beatles, Whitney, MJ, Madonna, and even more recent singers like Celine Dion seem to have. I think it might have to do with the idea that Mariah has never really taken any risks. Personal risks with her music, maybe, but never anything that hasn't been done before.

[🅳🅸🆂🅲🅾]

I think she does have some cultural significance. She lacks the controversy artists like Madonna, Michael and Janet Jackson, Britney have had. But she is known for her voice.

Of all her songs, I think "Vision Of Love", "Dreamlover", "Hero", "Fantasy", "Always Be My Baby", "My All", and "We Belong Together" are the ones that really stick out for me.

In terms of other areas where she has been unforgettable was in the Dance remix scene. Whenever remixer David Morales has been mentioned, his long association with her has been brought up. "Dreamlover", "Fantasy", "Always Be My Baby", "My All" and "Say Somethin" are the ones that are usually most mentioned about.

[hearthemusic11]

Maybe because they all sound very, very, very similar? At least IMO they do, I'm sure a lot of other people feel the same way as well.

[🅳🅸🆂🅲🅾]

Jan 29, 2008 3:33:57 GMT -5 hearthemusic11 said:

Maybe because they all sound very, very, very similar? At least IMO they do, I'm sure a lot of other people feel the same way as well.

Some felt the lead singles from Music Box, Daydream, Butterfly and Rainbow were formulaic in that they were upbeat and centered around some loop/"happy" synths. I felt that the idea was similar, but each stood on it's own. I know 3 out of the 4 contained some sort of sample. Maybe even the 4th one might have but I never did buy Rainbow so I don't know for sure.

[Pulse]

I think you're overrating other artists and underrating Mariah.

If you're including songs like Borderline and Rock With You, then Vision of Love, Dreamlover, Fantasy, Always Be My Baby, and We Belong Together should definitely be included too

[Adonis the DemiGod!]

Mariah's songs aren't that memorable. Maybe people get sick of them once they are done with them because the radio plays them to the point that no one ever wants to hear them again. Plus Mariah's biggest hits are all in the same vein. You can only sing the same song so many ways before it becomes forgettable. The problem is that if you've heard one Mariah Carey ballad you've heard them all. if you've heard one Mariah Carey uptempo you've heard them all.

[jazzyskye10²]

Jan 29, 2008 8:50:21 GMT -5 Adonis the DemiGod! said:

The problem is that if you've heard one Mariah Carey ballad you've heard them all. if you've heard one Mariah Carey uptempo you've heard them all.

The hell? This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. *smdh* If that were to be the case I doubt that Mariah would have the career that she has. I sure don't hear Vision of Love in We Belong Together or Fantasy in Shake It Off. Yet I digress....

Anyways, Mariah has plenty of memorable songs from her first single to hits from her last album. Even songs that were not chart toppers a'la Breakdown & Butterfly are still memorable.

[₫anny Jerz ♔]

I don't think her songs are forgettable, but I'm biased so you can't go by me. I think the fact that Mariah is perhaps one of the most emulated singers of our time (just look at all the Mariah wannabe's seemingly everywhere) speaks volumes for her impact in the music industry.

[mrmister]

I don't mean to knock Mariah or anything, its just something Ive noticed. I rarely hear her songs referenced in pop culture (movies, books etc). I never hear her name mentioned in any movies either. There was this magazine that had all these singers in animated version, yet it still kinda looks like the singer, and everyone at work could point out Madonna, Michael Jackson, Diana Ross, Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson, Elton John, even Celine Dion yet no one could indentify Mariah. Is she not interesting enough?

And yes, I do consider Borderline and Rock With You classics. When you heard Chris Tucker sing it on Rush Hour, EVERYONE knew what he was singing and who he was imitating. I doubt he would sing Vision of Love because the director would say "no, ain't nobody gonna know what you're doing". And whenever radio playlists go back to 80s music, Borderline is always there. When its back to 90s time, I hear some BSB songs, Spice Girls, Kiss Me, I Will Always Love You, Titanic song, Baby One More Time, but no Mariah eventhough she dominated the decade.

Its not a knock, but Im just curious.

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

That's what I'm saying too. Aside from music, she isn't really seen anywhere else. I think the only time she was ever "on" SNL was during the Divas Live days when there was also Celine Dion and Shania Twain.

[mrmister]

Jan 29, 2008 3:33:57 GMT -5 hearthemusic11 said:

Maybe because they all sound very, very, very similar? At least IMO they do, I'm sure a lot of other people feel the same way as well.

Yeah someone at work mentioned that. But then practically all of Madonna's 80s songs kinda fall in to the "samey" category. I mean is Papa Don't Preach, Borderline, Open You Heart aren't THAT different. Neither is How Will I Know and I Wanna Dance..., and basically of the Supreme's hits sound the same too. Is it because those songs I mentioned follow a specific sound that defined an era (motown/doo wop, 80s cheesy pop)? whereas Mariah's songs aren't really specific to an era?

[jazzyskye10²]

Mariah's importance to pop culture is a given; all one has to do is look no further than American Idol or the current crop of young female artists where her influence is prominent. The thing about Mariah is that she has always been about the music. No need for gimmicks and controversial stances yet even without it she has created many memorable songs which is what this thread was supposed to be about.

For one to be interesting doesn't mean that they have to be media whores and or try to create controversy, et cetera. For example Anita Baker has many memorable songs as does her successor Toni Braxton who like Mariah just about the most controversial thing about them has been some of their clothing choices.

Anyone who tries to down Mariah because she is about the music well I feel sorry for ya. I understand that many people especially nowadays want the artists they like to create different gimmicks for each music era or cause controversy because somehow it makes them seem edgy but thats not my thing if it isn't organic. *shrugs*

Mariah is a a singer-songwriter and that has always been her main focus. Not how many times shes referenced in books, movies et cetera. At the end of the day her music speaks for itself and that includes her many memorable songs.

[banet2001]

Interestingly, I have been listening to music for years, yet I can only list a handful of big Mariah hits. I have heard all of her older hits many times, yet I seem to forget most of them soon after they fall off the charts.

I have also heard all of Madonna's big hit singles and I can name all of them, one after another even though I have never purchased a Madonna album.

I think part of it is that Mariah (or more accurately, Mariah's team of songwriters and producers) try to gear her album towards current radio trends, what ever they were at the time. Her songs fit in well with the current radio hits of the moment, but once radio trends changed, many of her older songs got lost in the shuffle of new radio trends. Mariah Carey has never been revolutionary. She has tried to fit in to current radio, and has done a nice job of that over the years. But to be remembered you really need to offer something different, interesting and unique and an artist needs to change radio trends, not follow them.

Madonna has done a nice job in standing out, being different and unique. She has changed her look, image and sound not only from album tot album, but from single to single. That has allowed her songs to really stand out and be memorable over time.

[atlantaboy]

Jan 29, 2008 3:33:57 GMT -5 hearthemusic11 said:

Maybe because they all sound very, very, very similar? At least IMO they do, I'm sure a lot of other people feel the same way as well.

Yeah completely agree...Always Be My Baby has a bit of a different accoustic guitar thing goin on, and that seems to be the MC song gettin the most recurrent play (at least around here)

When I'm scannin stations I can't tell the difference between We Belong Together and Don't Forget About Us, and I think a lot of her earlier 90s hits sound dated (electric piano with strings, kinda like Bette Midler songs)

[mrmister]

Jan 29, 2008 18:32:02 GMT -5 banet2001 said:

I think part of it is that Mariah (or more accurately, Mariah's team of songwriters and producers) try to gear her album towards current radio trends, what ever they were at the time. Her songs fit in well with the current radio hits of the moment, but once radio trends changed, many of her older songs got lost in the shuffle of new radio trends. Mariah Carey has never been revolutionary. She has tried to fit in to current radio, and has done a nice job of that over the years. But to be remembered you really need to offer something different, interesting and unique and an artist needs to change radio trends, not follow them.

Yeah I've heard people say that a lot about her. But what about songs like "Borderline", "Open Your Heart", "How Will I Know", "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun", aren't those songs fit into the 80s pop trend too? But they're still considered classics.

Maybe because certain songs strike a chord that resonate with listeners for years, so they can turn back to the song and feel the same way.

[atlantaboy]

^Mariah (unlike Madonna and Cyndi Lauper) never really put any culturally-lasting "hooks" into her songs...thinkin it was more about her voice (at least in the 90s)

[jazklash]

When even after tons of #1 hits and smash singles, your most memorable song is actually a cover - Badfinger's "Without You" ⁽¹⁾, not Harry Nilsson's, as is commonly attributed -, I think that alone speaks volumes about Mariah Carey's cultural cache or memorability.
Not to take away the fact that Mariah actually has a handful of more-than-decent songs. It's just, those high octaves aside, she doesn't have any discernible personality or even much of a charisma, really. In the end, she's just a tremendously successful performer who never brought anything really hers to the table. I think that's why people have a hard time coming up with anything that can easily be related to Mariah.

⁽¹⁾ A cover that actually didn't get to #1 in the US, ironically. Although it did get to #1 in a lot of countries worldwide, and became her real breakthrough single outside the US. Believe me, this is still the song most international audiences associate Mariah with.

[hearthemusic11]

Madonna's hits from her first 3 albums are in fact pretty similarly styled but her songs are very distinct from each other as far as subject matter goes. Holiday isn't the exact same message as Lucky Star which isn't the exact same message as Like A Virgin which isn't the exact same message as Material Girl which isn't the exact same message as Live To Tell, etc... of course she has some that overlap message but when I think of Mariah Carey what comes to mind is ballad after ballad (with some mid-tempos thrown in) about love, love, love or heartbreak.

You're always my baby, you're a heartbreaker, you're honey, you're my fantasy, you're my all, we belong together and don't forget about us, etc........ I can't keep track of them!

I do have a few favorites from her that I do listen to but there's no way I'd personally be able to listen to all her hits over and over.

I very much respect her vocal ability though.

[Player211]

It's easy to forget most of Mariah's songs because many of them sound too similar. Madoona on the other hand, has consistently recorded different styles of music, thereby forcing us to pay attention -- and more importantly -- remember, her songs.

[Mic Technique]

Mariah Carey's songs aren't any more or any less forgettable than songs by Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson, Toni Braxton, etc. And I also disagree with those who claim her tracks are far too similar to be remembered. It's pop music and as much as I value & appreciate it's simplistic brilliance, the genre's consistent hitmakers hit's never really differentiate that much to begin with.

This is an interesting argument but not an original one. It has been brought up before to create a bias and, I'll admit, one that I accidently fell for in the past. I'm not implying that was anyone's intention but to bring foward a question that almost claims to be factual without substantially backing themselves up is questionable.

[Diablo Cody™]

Jan 28, 2008 23:03:38 GMT -5 mrmister said:

When I look through Mariah's career, I noticed that she has had so few classic and memorable songs. Really the only songs that can be called true classics are "All I Want For Christmas" and MAYBE "Hero" since it seems to be popular at AC. But for someone who has had almost 20 years career, and 17#1 hits, almost 200 million records sold, her lack of cultural significance is astonishing.

Other comparable artists have plenty of memorable songs.
Madonna has "Holiday", "Borderline", "Like A Virgin", "Papa Dont Preach", "Like A Prayer", "Open Your Heart", "Vogue", "Ray of Light" and EVITA is still played regularly on TV

Whitney Houston has "Saving All My Love", "How Will I Know", "Greatest Love of All", "I Wanna Dance...", "I Will Always Love You", "I'm Every Woman", "I Have Nothing", plus other R&B classics ("You Give Good Love", "Exhale") and THE BODYGUAD and WAITING TO EXHALE still get played regularly on TV.

What's with you and the "their movie still gets played regularly on TV"? So if "Glitter" got played on TV, this thread would not exist? ???

[Slinky]

Jan 31, 2008 4:18:57 GMT -5 Mic Technique said:

Mariah Carey's songs aren't any more or any less forgettable than songs by Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson, Toni Braxton, etc. And I also disagree with those who claim her tracks are far too similar to be remembered. It's pop music and as much as I value & appreciate it's simplistic brilliance, the genre's consistent hitmakers hit's never really differentiate that much to begin with.

This is an interesting argument but not an original one. It has been brought up before to create a bias and, I'll admit, one that I accidently fell for in the past. I'm not implying that was anyone's intention but to bring foward a question that almost claims to be factual without substantially backing themselves up is questionable.

I'm in total agreement with this statement. What's great about this is that we can actually see the data about what AC stations are playing, and it totally disproves the entire premise of the question:

Whitney Songs in the AC Top 1000 Gold and Recurrents:

187 I Will Always Love Y... 1992 244
380 I Wanna Dance With S... 1987 147
466 How Will I Know 1985 114
557 I'm Every Woman 1992 85
602 So Emotional 1987 73
646 All At Once 1987 66
723 I Have Nothing 1992 56

785 spins total

Madonna Songs in the AC Top 1000 Gold and Recurrents:

128 Borderline 1984 297
152 Holiday 1983 271
167 Crazy For You 1985 260
169 Into The Groove 1985 259
304 Like A Prayer 1989 185
369 Lucky Star 1984 153
475 Open Your Heart 1986 112
516 Vogue 1990 96
578 La Isla Bonita 1987 79
686 Live To Tell 1986 61
689 Who's That Girl 1987 60
868 True Blue 1986 40
recurr Jump 2

1875 spins total

Mariah Songs in the AC Top 1000 Gold and Recurrents:

255 Hero 1993 212
322 Always Be My Baby 1995 176
333 I'll Be There 1992 170
375 Emotions 1991 149
477 Dreamlover 1993 112
755 Without You 1993 53
recurr We Belong Together 310
recurr Fly Like A Bird 4

1186 spins total

So bottom line, Madonna rules the gold airplay charts with all of her 80's stuff. Mariah is next, about 700 spins behind, with the songs being her early 90's stuff + WBT. Whitney is way behind both of them, so perhaps the question should be why Whitney doesn't resonate with the public the way the other two do. Michael Jackson, who the original poster also mentioned, is barely a footnote on AC compared to the women. He only has 4 songs in the top 1000 and they combine for 237 spins.

[Player211]

Airplay isn't a good indicator of who has resonated with the public, and Slinky's statistics proves why.

[atlantaboy]

Jan 31, 2008 19:03:25 GMT -5 Player211 said:

Airplay isn't a good indicator of who has resonated with the public, and Slinky's statistics proves why.

Not sure what u mean...those stats prove that Madonna is replayed the most (among female pop superstars) with AC listeners, and that def. seems to be true

Slinky's stats put Mariah next, and then Whitney (in terms of AC airplay)...if ur talkin bout which of these two is more of a pop icon, I'd prob agree that it'd be Whitney, but that has a lot to do with her roles in movies (and songs from the soundtracks to those movies), personal drama, etc. - if ur sayin that Whitney could sell out stadiums faster than Mariah, I'd say it's prob about a draw (but really not sure)

[Player211]

Feb 1, 2008 15:54:19 GMT -5 atlantaboy said:

Jan 31, 2008 19:03:25 GMT -5 Player211 said:

Airplay isn't a good indicator of who has resonated with the public, and Slinky's statistics proves why.

Not sure what u mean...those stats prove that Madonna is replayed the most (among female pop superstars) with AC listeners, and that def. seems to be true

Slinky's stats put Mariah next, and then Whitney (in terms of AC airplay)...if ur talkin bout which of these two is more of a pop icon, I'd prob agree that it'd be Whitney, but that has a lot to do with her roles in movies (and songs from the soundtracks to those movies), personal drama, etc. - if ur sayin that Whitney could sell out stadiums faster than Mariah, I'd say it's prob about a draw (but really not sure)

One poster said that Mariah's cultural significance is small. In responce, those airplay numbers were posted to suggest otherwise. Therefore, my point is that airplay doesn't indicate whether an artist is culturally significant.

[Mic Technique]

Feb 1, 2008 17:00:09 GMT -5 Player211 said:

Feb 1, 2008 15:54:19 GMT -5 atlantaboy said:

Not sure what u mean...those stats prove that Madonna is replayed the most (among female pop superstars) with AC listeners, and that def. seems to be true

Slinky's stats put Mariah next, and then Whitney (in terms of AC airplay)...if ur talkin bout which of these two is more of a pop icon, I'd prob agree that it'd be Whitney, but that has a lot to do with her roles in movies (and songs from the soundtracks to those movies), personal drama, etc. - if ur sayin that Whitney could sell out stadiums faster than Mariah, I'd say it's prob about a draw (but really not sure)

One poster said that Mariah's cultural significance is small. In responce, those airplay numbers were posted to suggest otherwise. Therefore, my point is that airplay doesn't indicate whether an artist is culturally significant.

Slinky wasn't trying to dispell the comments made about Mariah's alledged lack of cultural significance. The title of this thread happens to be "Why Are Mariah Songs Forgettable?" Slinky's evidence may not be major, it still work against the base idea of this thread. Many of her singles receive heavy recurrent plays.

Just a note: While I was driving last night, I heard "I'll Be There" on Lite FM and "I Don't Wanna Cry" on WBLS.

[atlantaboy]

Feb 1, 2008 17:00:09 GMT -5 Player211 said:

Feb 1, 2008 15:54:19 GMT -5 atlantaboy said:

Not sure what u mean...those stats prove that Madonna is replayed the most (among female pop superstars) with AC listeners, and that def. seems to be true

Slinky's stats put Mariah next, and then Whitney (in terms of AC airplay)...if ur talkin bout which of these two is more of a pop icon, I'd prob agree that it'd be Whitney, but that has a lot to do with her roles in movies (and songs from the soundtracks to those movies), personal drama, etc. - if ur sayin that Whitney could sell out stadiums faster than Mariah, I'd say it's prob about a draw (but really not sure)

One poster said that Mariah's cultural significance is small. In responce, those airplay numbers were posted to suggest otherwise. Therefore, my point is that airplay doesn't indicate whether an artist is culturally significant.

So are you sayin that she's not culturally significant? (just curious)

[Slinky]

Feb 2, 2008 2:07:46 GMT -5 Mic Technique said:

Slinky wasn't trying to dispell the comments made about Mariah's alledged lack of cultural significance. The title of this thread happens to be "Why Are Mariah Songs Forgettable?" Slinky's evidence may not be major, it still work against the base idea of this thread. Many of her singles receive heavy recurrent plays.

Exactly. Cultural significance can mean so many different things. You can argue cultural significance of those 4 artists for hours and not come up with a concrete answer, but AC airplay provids some solid evidence that Mariah's songs are not "forgotten", at least not moreso than any other artist. AC is perhaps the most tested format in the country. You can bet that if the audience considered them throwaways, they wouldn't be testing well, and wouldn't be played.