Hot 100: 05/02/2015 - "See You Again" (2nd week)

[renfield75]

Even if they did, it likely would only have been for 2-3 weeks max. That 18 weeks on top of the airplay chart looks more impressive for "Iris" than a couple of weeks sandwiched in during "The Boy Is Mine"'s run on top.

[85la]

Thanks guys, there still seems to be some uncertainty, but I think my question about the Top 40 Radio Monitor/Hot 100 Airplay was clarified!

[Libra]

Apr 24, 2015 18:09:48 GMT -5 crystalphnx said:

Apr 24, 2015 17:47:15 GMT -5 Future Captain said:

How can you find those old articles?

I've had good luck using Google Books. They don't have every issue ever, but still a very nice selection.

I posted a link in the Billboard 90s thread, but the American Radio History website has the issues Google Books doesn't have (as well as the ones they do). :)

[jenglisbe]

Apr 24, 2015 20:13:40 GMT -5 renfield75 said:

Even if they did, it likely would only have been for 2-3 weeks max. That 18 weeks on top of the airplay chart looks more impressive for "Iris" than a couple of weeks sandwiched in during "The Boy Is Mine"'s run on top.

I think, too, it should be taken into consideration that in the mid-90s commercial singles were still pretty common. So, "Tubthumping" getting to #6 in 1997/1998 would have been slightly easier than even a year earlier. For other comparisons you can look at deleted singles like "Fantasy" and "Because You Loved Me" which fell from #1 once their singles were deleted, and that was with those songs still having decent sales. So, even with decent sales and #1 airplay, the lack of full commercial availability kept them from #1.

[jenglisbe]

Apr 24, 2015 18:51:54 GMT -5 imbondz said:

Apr 24, 2015 15:55:37 GMT -5 renfield75 said:

Interesting. People think all those huge airplay smashes from the late 90s would have topped the Hot 100 had the '98 conversion happened sooner, but I don't think that's the case. Don't Speak, Torn, Fly, Iris---they all would have had big airplay numbers but zero sales. That's got nothing to do with Billboard policy, it's the fact that labels weren't releasing singles. Based on the big numbers "Tragic Kingdom" did I would assume that "Don't Speak" would have been a big seller and topped the Hot 100 if it had been commercially released...but it wasn't, so we'll never really know. Without sales, I'm not sure it could have dethroned "Un-Break My Heart". Toni had solid sales and was no slouch in airplay itself, so No Doubt likely wouldn't have been #1 even if Billboard had made the switch sooner.

But the data is probably somewhere. If we had all the AirPlay data back then, couldn't we figure out if a song would have went to #1?

Maybe not 100% accurate but close enough. I don't care what anyone says, both Don't Speak and Iris would have gone to #1 if billboard didn't have the sales thing.

Didn't Billboard still compile a version of the Hot 100 that would have included airplay-only tracks for a bit of time before they debuted the official new version of the Hot 100 with the 1999 chart year? That's why there is that asterisk regarding "I'm Your Angel" going to #1; it was 46 the previous week on the version that included airplay-only tracks. Wouldn't that unofficial chart give us concrete information about where "Iris" would have charted? It 'debuted' at #8 on the Hot 100 when it was still #1 on Hot 100 Airplay, though obviously its impressions had peaked before then. How far back was that unofficial chart compiled?

[allow that]

Apr 24, 2015 15:55:37 GMT -5 renfield75 said:

Apr 24, 2015 11:06:32 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Ha, not sure if this is a typo too ;) but the Hot 100 Singles Spotlight for the November 29, 1997 issue gives us insight into how airplay-only singles would have done at the time. "Tubthumping" was #1 on Hot 100 Airplay that week, and it had a 12-inch vinyl single that allowed it to chart. It was #6 on the Hot 100 that week with minimal sales.

Interesting. People think all those huge airplay smashes from the late 90s would have topped the Hot 100 had the '98 conversion happened sooner, but I don't think that's the case. Don't Speak, Torn, Fly, Iris---they all would have had big airplay numbers but zero sales. That's got nothing to do with Billboard policy, it's the fact that labels weren't releasing singles. Based on the big numbers "Tragic Kingdom" did I would assume that "Don't Speak" would have been a big seller and topped the Hot 100 if it had been commercially released...but it wasn't, so we'll never really know. Without sales, I'm not sure it could have dethroned "Un-Break My Heart". Toni had solid sales and was no slouch in airplay itself, so No Doubt likely wouldn't have been #1 even if Billboard had made the switch sooner.

Yeah, even if airplay only singles were allowed to chart I don't think No Doubt would have gotten to #1 without a commercial single. Toni Braxton was #2 in airplay herself and adult contemporary/R&B ballads were huge sellers back then. Keep in mind that when Billboard allowed "airplay only" singles to chart, they also added the Urban and Urban AC panels to Hot 100 Airplay. Toni probably would have eaten into a good chunk of the 16 weeks that "Don't Speak" spent topping airplay then. If "Don't Speak" DID have a commercial single, I think it probably would have hit #1 but there's a still a decent chance that it wouldn't have. I think at best it would have stolen about 4 weeks from Toni's 11-week run, with both songs ultimately peaking at the top.

As for "Torn" I actually think it would have been pretty sales-strong. Why? Natalie was a new, young, MTV-buzzed artist (MTV buzz in 1998 = Tumblr/Twitter buzz in 2015). Everyone knew and loved her song... but her album wasn't selling. This would have been a definitive case of a "singles artist." Going by the quick turnover of songs in Spring 1998, I think she very easily could have sneaked a week or two in at the top.

"Iris" I already spoke of above. I think its chances of hitting #1 would have been about 50/50 if it had a widely available commercial single. Then again, if the Urban panel was included in airplay it would have peaked at #2 in all likelihood (and wouldn't have spent 18 weeks at #1 in Airplay either).

[jebsib]

Rock based singles didn't sell in the 90s.
In late 1998 Aerosmith was the first rock group since 1992 to top the chart.

We think Iris, Torn and Don't Speak would have topped the big chart, but don't forget about Donna Lewis and Semi Charmed Life.

[imbondz]

Apr 25, 2015 12:37:20 GMT -5 jebsib said:

Rock based singles didn't sell in the 90s.
In late 1998 Aerosmith was the first rock group since 1992 to top the chart.

We think Iris, Torn and Don't Speak would have topped the big chart, but don't forget about Donna Lewis and Semi Charmed Life.

Iris and Don't Speak were on a whole other level than Donna Lewis and Semi Charmed Life were.

[85la]

Apr 24, 2015 23:15:13 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Apr 24, 2015 20:13:40 GMT -5 renfield75 said:

Even if they did, it likely would only have been for 2-3 weeks max. That 18 weeks on top of the airplay chart looks more impressive for "Iris" than a couple of weeks sandwiched in during "The Boy Is Mine"'s run on top.

I think, too, it should be taken into consideration that in the mid-90s commercial singles were still pretty common. So, "Tubthumping" getting to #6 in 1997/1998 would have been slightly easier than even a year earlier. For other comparisons you can look at deleted singles like "Fantasy" and "Because You Loved Me" which fell from #1 once their singles were deleted, and that was with those songs still having decent sales. So, even with decent sales and #1 airplay, the lack of full commercial availability kept them from #1.

Did you mean to refer to My Heart Will Go On instead of Because You Loved Me? Because the latter was #1 for six weeks and did not at all fall quickly thereafter, in fact it stayed in the top ten for 19 weeks. MHWGO, however, was widely noted for being released and then deleted quickly, staying at the top for only 2 weeks and then falling pretty rapidly thereafter. Fantasy didn't exactly plummet after its 8 week run at the top either.

[jenglisbe]

Apr 25, 2015 15:24:02 GMT -5 85la said:

Apr 24, 2015 23:15:13 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

I think, too, it should be taken into consideration that in the mid-90s commercial singles were still pretty common. So, "Tubthumping" getting to #6 in 1997/1998 would have been slightly easier than even a year earlier. For other comparisons you can look at deleted singles like "Fantasy" and "Because You Loved Me" which fell from #1 once their singles were deleted, and that was with those songs still having decent sales. So, even with decent sales and #1 airplay, the lack of full commercial availability kept them from #1.

Did you mean to refer to My Heart Will Go On instead of Because You Loved Me? Because the latter was #1 for six weeks and did not at all fall quickly thereafter, in fact it stayed in the top ten for 19 weeks. MHWGO, however, was widely noted for being released and then deleted quickly, staying at the top for only 2 weeks and then falling pretty rapidly thereafter. Fantasy didn't exactly plummet after its 8 week run at the top either.

Where did I say they fell quickly?

[85la]

Apr 25, 2015 11:02:42 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Apr 24, 2015 18:51:54 GMT -5 imbondz said:

But the data is probably somewhere. If we had all the AirPlay data back then, couldn't we figure out if a song would have went to #1?

Maybe not 100% accurate but close enough. I don't care what anyone says, both Don't Speak and Iris would have gone to #1 if billboard didn't have the sales thing.

Didn't Billboard still compile a version of the Hot 100 that would have included airplay-only tracks for a bit of time before they debuted the official new version of the Hot 100 with the 1999 chart year? That's why there is that asterisk regarding "I'm Your Angel" going to #1; it was 46 the previous week on the version that included airplay-only tracks. Wouldn't that unofficial chart give us concrete information about where "Iris" would have charted? It 'debuted' at #8 on the Hot 100 when it was still #1 on Hot 100 Airplay, though obviously its impressions had peaked before then. How far back was that unofficial chart compiled?

The issue with I'm Your Angel (the controversy over whether or not it debuted at #1) and the couple weeks previous to the official December '98 change was because for the first week the chart was published with the change, in the "1 week ago" and "2 weeks ago" columns, they calculated those rankings as if the airplay only rule were in effect those weeks. But the rule was not actually in place those weeks and those rankings were not published for those weeks' charts, they were just hypotheticals to give us an idea of what the week to week changes would be like if the rule was in place. Regarding the I'm Your Angel controversy then, it is quite clear that the first week it appeared on a published Hot 100 Singles chart, it ranked at #1; thus, any way you look at it, it debuted at #1.

[85la]

Apr 25, 2015 15:32:25 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Apr 25, 2015 15:24:02 GMT -5 85la said:

Did you mean to refer to My Heart Will Go On instead of Because You Loved Me? Because the latter was #1 for six weeks and did not at all fall quickly thereafter, in fact it stayed in the top ten for 19 weeks. MHWGO, however, was widely noted for being released and then deleted quickly, staying at the top for only 2 weeks and then falling pretty rapidly thereafter. Fantasy didn't exactly plummet after its 8 week run at the top either.

Where did I say they fell quickly?

Well, I guess it seemed that what you were saying overall was that both the number of weeks they were #1 and their overall chart lives were relatively brief. I'll admit I don't know for a fact whether or not those singles were deleted prematurely and it would probably be pretty hard to find that out now, but just by looking at their chart runs (BYLM: #1 for six weeks, top ten for 19; Fantasy: #1 for 8 weeks, top ten for 16), they were not brief at all, so it would be hard to believe their singles were deleted.

[jenglisbe]

Apr 25, 2015 15:41:15 GMT -5 85la said:

Apr 25, 2015 11:02:42 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Didn't Billboard still compile a version of the Hot 100 that would have included airplay-only tracks for a bit of time before they debuted the official new version of the Hot 100 with the 1999 chart year? That's why there is that asterisk regarding "I'm Your Angel" going to #1; it was 46 the previous week on the version that included airplay-only tracks. Wouldn't that unofficial chart give us concrete information about where "Iris" would have charted? It 'debuted' at #8 on the Hot 100 when it was still #1 on Hot 100 Airplay, though obviously its impressions had peaked before then. How far back was that unofficial chart compiled?

The issue with I'm Your Angel (the controversy over whether or not it debuted at #1) and the couple weeks previous to the official December '98 change was because for the first week the chart was published with the change, in the "1 week ago" and "2 weeks ago" columns, they calculated those rankings as if the airplay only rule were in effect those weeks. But the rule was not actually in place those weeks and those rankings were not published for those weeks' charts, they were just hypotheticals to give us an idea of what the week to week changes would be like if the rule was in place. Regarding the I'm Your Angel controversy then, it is quite clear that the first week it appeared on a published Hot 100 Singles chart, it ranked at #1; thus, any way you look at it, it debuted at #1.

You completely missed my point. The point of my post had nothing to do with how "IYA" is viewed, it had to do with the fact that Billboard was compiling a chart at that time that included airplay-only singles.

Apr 25, 2015 15:54:31 GMT -5 85la said:

Apr 25, 2015 15:32:25 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Where did I say they fell quickly?

Well, I guess it seemed that what you were saying overall was that both the number of weeks they were #1 and their overall chart lives were relatively brief. I'll admit I don't know for a fact whether or not those singles were deleted prematurely and it would probably be pretty hard to find that out now, but just by looking at their chart runs (BYLM: #1 for six weeks, top ten for 19; Fantasy: #1 for 8 weeks, top ten for 16), they were not brief at all, so it would be hard to believe their singles were deleted.

It may be hard for you to believe, but it's not hard to find out at all. You can read Billboard mentioning the "Fantasy" single being deleted here:
i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab275/crystalphoenix98/BBarticlefantasydeleted.png
And, yes, both "Fantasy" and "BYLM" still had good chart runs, but they fell quicker than they would have if their commercial singles hadn't been deleted. Both also fell from #1 shortly after their commercial singles were deleted, as did Carey's "I'll Be There" in 1992. My point in mentioning that is because we have been discussing how airplay-only singles would have done on the Hot 100 in 1996 and 1997.

[Hot AC Archiver]

I thought you all might like to see an example of a chart that was from the Top 40 Radio Monitor Billboard publication. This chart was the "Top 40 Audience" chart, which combined all the top 40 formats, AC, and Modern AC charts. The chart was based on audience and I believe had no recurrent rule. The photo below is just of the top 20, but it was a top 40 chart.


photo sharing

[brady47]

Apr 26, 2015 10:18:09 GMT -5 Hot AC Archiver said:

I thought you all might like to see an example of a chart that was from the Top 40 Radio Monitor Billboard publication. This chart was the "Top 40 Audience" chart, which combined all the top 40 formats, AC, and Modern AC charts. The chart was based on audience and I believe had no recurrent rule. The photo below is just of the top 20, but it was a top 40 chart.


photo sharing

Wow, Torn was huge! It was harder for songs to get 100 million AI+ back then in the late 90s right? Great feat for Natalie!

[jenglisbe]

"Torn" was big for sure, but that 100 million impressions is between several (5?) formats.

[85la]

Apr 25, 2015 17:58:05 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Apr 25, 2015 15:41:15 GMT -5 85la said:

The issue with I'm Your Angel (the controversy over whether or not it debuted at #1) and the couple weeks previous to the official December '98 change was because for the first week the chart was published with the change, in the "1 week ago" and "2 weeks ago" columns, they calculated those rankings as if the airplay only rule were in effect those weeks. But the rule was not actually in place those weeks and those rankings were not published for those weeks' charts, they were just hypotheticals to give us an idea of what the week to week changes would be like if the rule was in place. Regarding the I'm Your Angel controversy then, it is quite clear that the first week it appeared on a published Hot 100 Singles chart, it ranked at #1; thus, any way you look at it, it debuted at #1.

You completely missed my point. The point of my post had nothing to do with how "IYA" is viewed, it had to do with the fact that Billboard was compiling a chart at that time that included airplay-only singles.

Apr 25, 2015 15:54:31 GMT -5 85la said:

Well, I guess it seemed that what you were saying overall was that both the number of weeks they were #1 and their overall chart lives were relatively brief. I'll admit I don't know for a fact whether or not those singles were deleted prematurely and it would probably be pretty hard to find that out now, but just by looking at their chart runs (BYLM: #1 for six weeks, top ten for 19; Fantasy: #1 for 8 weeks, top ten for 16), they were not brief at all, so it would be hard to believe their singles were deleted.

It may be hard for you to believe, but it's not hard to find out at all. You can read Billboard mentioning the "Fantasy" single being deleted here:
i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab275/crystalphoenix98/BBarticlefantasydeleted.png
And, yes, both "Fantasy" and "BYLM" still had good chart runs, but they fell quicker than they would have if their commercial singles hadn't been deleted. Both also fell from #1 shortly after their commercial singles were deleted, as did Carey's "I'll Be There" in 1992. My point in mentioning that is because we have been discussing how airplay-only singles would have done on the Hot 100 in 1996 and 1997.

About the I"m Your Angel thing: Yeah, I realized I went off point right after I posted that. I've just been wanting to make a rant about that song for a while because Billboard and so many other sources are pretending now that it didn't debut at number one, when looking at it logically, it would be hard to make that argument. This would make Celine one of only three artists, I believe, to have multiple #1 debuts (I need not mention the other two, for I don't want this thread to blow up for 10 more pages. I am actually a big fan of those artists anyway, one of them even more than Celine).

About BYLM/Fantasy: Alright, I guess I have to give that to you as well since you provided documented proof, but it still seems like clearer examples could have been given. I think almost all singles were deleted from the market though eventually, obviously at varying times. Especially if it's a couple years after they were hits. In the past I've tried to buy such singles, but I guess they just didn't manufacture them after a while.

[jenglisbe]

Apr 26, 2015 14:24:12 GMT -5 85la said:

About BYLM/Fantasy: Alright, I guess I have to give that to you as well since you provided documented proof, but it still seems like clearer examples could have been given. I think almost all singles were deleted from the market though eventually, obviously at varying times. Especially if it's a couple years after they were hits. In the past I've tried to buy such singles, but I guess they just didn't manufacture them after a while.

Those two songs were deleted when they were #1, which was why I used them as examples. That is very different from a song where the single stops getting made and is no longer available because it's been out for awhile and fell off the chart.

[cause_for_celebration]

What exactly does "deleting" mean in this context? Didn't they just press a certain amount of singles and it just happened to sell out quickly? Or am I misunderstanding

[crystalphnx]

Apr 26, 2015 17:10:13 GMT -5 cause_for_celebration said:

What exactly does "deleting" mean in this context? Didn't they just press a certain amount of singles and it just happened to sell out quickly? Or am I misunderstanding

I could be wrong, but I believe "deleting" in this context means ceasing to print a single even when it's still current/selling well (in order to drive people to buy the album instead, or shift focus to a follow-up single); essentially, deliberately cutting off the supply prematurely.

Kind of like "retiring" Beanie Babies...

[jenglisbe]

Apr 26, 2015 17:42:01 GMT -5 crystalphnx said:

Apr 26, 2015 17:10:13 GMT -5 cause_for_celebration said:

What exactly does "deleting" mean in this context? Didn't they just press a certain amount of singles and it just happened to sell out quickly? Or am I misunderstanding

I could be wrong, but I believe "deleting" in this context means ceasing to print a single even when it's still current/selling well (in order to drive people to buy the album instead, or shift focus to a follow-up single); essentially, deliberately cutting off the supply prematurely.

Kind of like "retiring" Beanie Babies...

Exactly. Labels would continue pressing copies of singles to meet the demand, just as they did (and do) for albums. To "delete" a single meant to stop pressing the single, even though there was still demand. So, if a store ran out of copies of the single, they didn't get any more shipments. Sales for those singles then obviously dropped faster than they would have otherwise.

[Tea-why]

Apr 25, 2015 14:13:47 GMT -5 imbondz said:

Apr 25, 2015 12:37:20 GMT -5 jebsib said:

Rock based singles didn't sell in the 90s.
In late 1998 Aerosmith was the first rock group since 1992 to top the chart.

We think Iris, Torn and Don't Speak would have topped the big chart, but don't forget about Donna Lewis and Semi Charmed Life.

Iris and Don't Speak were on a whole other level than Donna Lewis and Semi Charmed Life were.

"I Love You Always Forever" topped the Hot 100 Airplay chart for 13 weeks though, only 3 weeks less than "Don't Speak".

[Tea-why]

Wasn't "Because You Loved Me" deleted to make way for "Always Be My Baby?" lol Or is that just a rumour?

[Verisimilitude]

Apr 27, 2015 19:57:38 GMT -5 Tea-why said:

Wasn't "Because You Loved Me" deleted to make way for "Always Be My Baby?" lol Or is that just a rumour?

It was. Both artists were on Sony, and Mariah's husband at the time, Tommy Mottola wanted to make sure that "Always Be My Baby" hit #1 at any measure. Ironically, he was also the reason "Loverboy" didn't hit #1 on the Hot 100, as he released a physical single for Destiny's Child's "Bootylicious" (and also sold it very cheaply like "Loverboy" was).

[Gary]

With a new chart week upon us, rather than have multiple Hot 100 threads going at the same time (3 and counting looks like) it might be less confusing if this topic gets moved to a thread with a more appropriate title, such as


pulsemusic.proboards.com/thread/148795/billboard-1990s-revised


???

The discussion pertaining to the actual thread title has dried up a while a ago.

[jenglisbe]

Apr 27, 2015 20:09:53 GMT -5 Verisimilitude said:

Apr 27, 2015 19:57:38 GMT -5 Tea-why said:

Wasn't "Because You Loved Me" deleted to make way for "Always Be My Baby?" lol Or is that just a rumour?

It was. Both artists were on Sony, and Mariah's husband at the time, Tommy Mottola wanted to make sure that "Always Be My Baby" hit #1 at any measure. Ironically, he was also the reason "Loverboy" didn't hit #1 on the Hot 100, as he released a physical single for Destiny's Child's "Bootylicious" (and also sold it very cheaply like "Loverboy" was).

That isn't necessarily true. Just a few months earlier Mariah's own single "Fantasy" was deleted, presumably to help album sales. It's entirely possible the single for "BYLM" was deleted to help Celine's album sales. That was a traditional practice back then. Mariah's "I'll Be There" was also deleted to help the sales of her MTV Unplugged, and her "Heartbreaker" and "Thank God I Found You" were limited singles; again, to help album sales. If Sony had a practice of doing that, then why isn't it likely that is what happened with Celine's single?