Billboard Hot 100: 10/05/2024

[fridayteenage]

espresso rn
YouTube 8
apple 10
Spotify 6
radio 3

[iHype.]

The fact we are still in the “which artist career is similar to Katy” talk is sending me for some reason.

But for what it is worth in the past I thought she was similar to Olivia Newton-John more than any female prior to her in terms of success and standing in Pop music.

Olivia had countless huge smashes to the point where she is #22 on the All-Time Hot 100 Artist ranking ahead of even some of the hugest legends. Ironically Katy’s overall Hot 100 success is nearly identical as she is close to her at #26. (“Physical” was also the biggest Hot 100 hit of the 80s period.)

However I think outside of successful hits she really isn’t regarded anywhere similar to 20th century legendary female names like Madonna, Aretha, Barbra, Diana/Supremes, Whitney, Tina Turner, Stevie Nicks, etc. She is not really seen as an innovative artist, or amazing vocalist, or legendary performer, top songwriter, etc. She really was known musically just for catchy Pop hits (and being very attractive).

Her most iconic hits hold up well today and she was definitely a household name of her time but the artistry was never really there nor was she ever a phenomenon.

But she also did have one very iconic era with “Grease” Soundtrack, which I guess you could say is her “Teenage Dream” equivalent era.

[fridayteenage]

olivia: a four-time Grammy Award winner inc ROTY

[Ｓｏｕｎｄｃｌ🕤ｃｋ]

Sept 25, 2024 23:45:09 GMT -5 fridayteenage said:

olivia: a four-time Grammy Award winner inc ROTY

LOL, so just because she has 4 Grammys, their careers are incomparable? sounds logical 

Actually, I think Olivia Newton-John makes much more sense than Paula Abdul.

[jenglisbe]

Olivia Newton-John never had one big 'era' apart from Grease, which of course wasn't even a solo project. More so, she began as someone with big success in both the country world and the pop world as her songs tended to go top 10 on both the country chart and the Hot 100 (plus AC). She then had a slow down in the late 1970s until Grease revived her career. From there she had about another 5 years of pop success. Perry never had success in a different genre such as country, and she never had the 'comeback' angle of ONJ either.

I don't know that there is a good comparison for Katy's trajectory - or even why there needs to be one - but the best comparison to me is Boyz II Men. Both Boyz and Perry had big 'debut' albums (for Perry it was a debut to the pop world) with multiple hits, and then both released second albums that were even bigger eras for them. Then both had third albums that produced multiple hits but that also had some disappointments and foreshadowed a decline in success. Both then never had another big era. It's still not a perfect comparison, but at least the general trajectories are similar.

[Choco]

Y'all focus too much on specifics when Paula/Olivia comparison just means: "at the top of the pop genre in a huge way but fell out of there in a handful of years". Comparing specifics like Hot 100 chart entries between the 2010s and the 1980s is just never gonna work because the charts work so differently. Album tracks would never chart back in the day, for example.

These names thrown out like Olivia, Boyz II Men and Paula never changed their sound too much before their declines, which is another complain about Katy. She never evolved out of that late 2000s pop sound that much and it's a sound that isn't charting well anymore.

[iHype.]

Sept 26, 2024 7:32:56 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Olivia Newton-John never had one big 'era' apart from Grease,

A whole seperate discussion but current idea of eras wasn’t really even a thing until after her run though to be frank. It wasn’t until the mid 80s when albums began having 3+ big hits commonly. There was a a few rare outliers prior, but after Thriller is I think what changed the normal album cycle. All the Beatles, Elvis, Aretha, etc albums from 70s and earlier would have like 2 singles then they’d move onto the next album months later. Even some of the most iconic albums would have like maybe 3 hit singles then after that the era was ended or had minor singles.

And funnily enough I also think Teenage Dream is moreso distinctively seen as “one huge era” in retrospect with Pop fanatics. I don’t think it was looked at much as so back then. She was never considered an album artist during the time and I think to even many Pop consumers they just assumed she released a bunch of hits for a few years straight but they didn’t pin them directly to one album/project. Rihanna is the same too but an even better example probably because she released albums so constantly the eras would begin to truly bleed into one another. Ariana’s 2010s run is probably another example.

Basically what I’m saying is Teenage Dream was never a phenomenon individually like Confessions, Thriller, The Bodyguard, etc and sold huge amounts. It just had a big string of hits that individually did well like a Rihanna or Ariana album.

I think many would just see Katy as a consistent hitmaker for a decade or so then fell off.

[jenglisbe]

Sept 26, 2024 9:30:47 GMT -5 iHype. said:

Sept 26, 2024 7:32:56 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Olivia Newton-John never had one big 'era' apart from Grease,

A whole seperate discussion but current idea of eras wasn’t really even a thing until after her run though to be frank. It wasn’t until the mid 80s when albums began having 3+ big hits commonly. There was a a few rare outliers prior, but after Thriller is I think what changed the normal album cycle. All the Beatles, Elvis, Aretha, etc albums from 70s and earlier would have like 2 singles then they’d move onto the next album months later. Even some of the most iconic albums would have like maybe 3 hit singles then after that the era was ended or had minor singles.

And funnily enough I also think Teenage Dream is moreso distinctively seen as “one huge era” in retrospect with Pop fanatics. I don’t think it was looked at much as so back then. She was never considered an album artist during the time and I think to even many Pop consumers they just assumed she released a bunch of hits for a few years straight but they didn’t pin them directly to one album/project. Rihanna is the same too but an even better example probably because she released albums so constantly the eras would begin to truly bleed into one another. Ariana’s 2010s run is probably another example.

Basically what I’m saying is Teenage Dream was never a phenomenon individually like Confessions, Thriller, The Bodyguard, etc. It just had a big string of hits like a Rihanna or Ariana album.

I think many would just see Katy as a consistent hitmaker for a decade or so then fell off.

I certainly can't disagree with any of that, but then it also points out why any specific comparison of Katy Perry to another artist is pretty difficult. If the general comparison is just "Big hitmaker for 6 years and then fell off," you can compare her to a lot of artists (Richard Marx, Christina Aguilera, etc).

Anyway, if I'm remembering correctly, the post that started this discussion was someone saying this new album might be Perry's Head Over Heels. That was a comparison of specific albums (a comparison I don't agree with), but it led to a discussion about Katy and Paula in general.

(Also, in a bit of kismet, it's apparently Olivia Newton John's birthday today! I saw her name was trending on Twitter and was like, "Surely Pulse doesn't have this kind of power" lmao!)

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Sept 26, 2024 8:44:12 GMT -5 Choco said:

Y'all focus too much on specifics when Paula/Olivia comparison just means: "at the top of the pop genre in a huge way but fell out of there in a handful of years". Comparing specifics like Hot 100 chart entries between the 2010s and the 1980s is just never gonna work because the charts work so differently. Album tracks would never chart back in the day, for example.

These names thrown out like Olivia, Boyz II Men and Paula never changed their sound too much before their declines, which is another complain about Katy. She never evolved out of that late 2000s pop sound that much and it's a sound that isn't charting well anymore.

Which is why the Paula one worked.

I know Pulsers love making comparisons across artists from different time periods, but there’s never going to be one that lines up perfectly and I don’t know why people insist on making it so. For me, when I think of the Paula comparison, it’s clearly around the drop-off from being an A-list hitmaker to suddenly not. Most artists have a gradual drop-off and both of those didn’t. It was sudden. Now, you can say Katy had a longer and larger peak than Paula, sure, but comparative to their generations, Paula dominated for several years and then fell off. Katy dominated for several years and fell off. Is a comparison needed? Nah. Does it matter? Not even. But it helps when discussing what happened, what could be and making a case for what Katy’s next steps could be based on what has happened before. Katy could very well be a Cyndi Lauper. Cyndi didn’t have as long a success-period or as many hits but for a brief period (shorter than both Paula and Katy), she was massive and fell off quickly. But she managed to sustain her career in other ways. Maybe Katy might follow that trajectory. Or maybe Dua is this generation’s Cyndi. All in all, it literally doesn’t matter and is purely 100% completely for discussionary points and really nothing more substantial beyond that.

[iHype.]

Sept 26, 2024 9:36:03 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Sept 26, 2024 9:30:47 GMT -5 iHype. said:

A whole seperate discussion but current idea of eras wasn’t really even a thing until after her run though to be frank. It wasn’t until the mid 80s when albums began having 3+ big hits commonly. There was a a few rare outliers prior, but after Thriller is I think what changed the normal album cycle. All the Beatles, Elvis, Aretha, etc albums from 70s and earlier would have like 2 singles then they’d move onto the next album months later. Even some of the most iconic albums would have like maybe 3 hit singles then after that the era was ended or had minor singles.

And funnily enough I also think Teenage Dream is moreso distinctively seen as “one huge era” in retrospect with Pop fanatics. I don’t think it was looked at much as so back then. She was never considered an album artist during the time and I think to even many Pop consumers they just assumed she released a bunch of hits for a few years straight but they didn’t pin them directly to one album/project. Rihanna is the same too but an even better example probably because she released albums so constantly the eras would begin to truly bleed into one another. Ariana’s 2010s run is probably another example.

Basically what I’m saying is Teenage Dream was never a phenomenon individually like Confessions, Thriller, The Bodyguard, etc. It just had a big string of hits like a Rihanna or Ariana album.

I think many would just see Katy as a consistent hitmaker for a decade or so then fell off.

I certainly can't disagree with any of that, but then it also points out why any specific comparison of Katy Perry to another artist is pretty difficult. If the general comparison is just "Big hitmaker for 6 years and then fell off," you can compare her to a lot of artists (Richard Marx, Christina Aguilera, etc).

Anyway, if I'm remembering correctly, the post that started this discussion was someone saying this new album might be Perry's Head Over Heels. That was a comparison of specific albums (a comparison I don't agree with), but it led to a discussion about Katy and Paula in general.

(Also, in a bit of kismet, it's apparently Olivia Newton John's birthday today! I saw her name was trending on Twitter and was like, "Surely Pulse doesn't have this kind of power" lmao!)

Oh I agree the comparisons really are all subjective and nobody is going to universally agree.

I just think it’s interesting people keep reinforcing Teenage Dream as just one highlight album for her and the vast majority of her career and that’s it. Yes it’s her most successful album, but she had 2 other objectively very successful albums that each had a handful of hits. Aaaand even in 2017 with Witness she had “Chained” and “Feels” that year which were top 10 hits all over the world and in most major markets. That’s 2008-2017 where she had consistently decent sized hits, across 4 album cycles.

It’s almost like after the 2000s when I commonly saw people saying Usher’s career was a fluke that fell off after Confessions. Were “8701” and “My Way” not eras also with notable success? And did “Here I Stand” despite being a big decline not also even have various hits including a #1?

His 1997-2008 run was similar to her 2008-2017 now that I think about it, so that’s why I’m confused with Paula comparisons because I definitely wouldn’t have considered that run for Usher’s career similar to Paula’s either by that point.

And LOL @ the Olivia birthday tidbit, how ironic.

[jenglisbe]

Sept 26, 2024 10:05:34 GMT -5 iHype. said:

Sept 26, 2024 9:36:03 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

I certainly can't disagree with any of that, but then it also points out why any specific comparison of Katy Perry to another artist is pretty difficult. If the general comparison is just "Big hitmaker for 6 years and then fell off," you can compare her to a lot of artists (Richard Marx, Christina Aguilera, etc).

Anyway, if I'm remembering correctly, the post that started this discussion was someone saying this new album might be Perry's Head Over Heels. That was a comparison of specific albums (a comparison I don't agree with), but it led to a discussion about Katy and Paula in general.

(Also, in a bit of kismet, it's apparently Olivia Newton John's birthday today! I saw her name was trending on Twitter and was like, "Surely Pulse doesn't have this kind of power" lmao!)

Oh I agree the comparisons really are all subjective and nobody is going to universally agree.

I just think it’s interesting people keep reinforcing Teenage Dream as just one imperial album for her and that’s it. Yes it’s her most successful album, but she had 2 other objectively very successful albums and even in 2017 she had “Chained” and “Feels” that year which were top 10 hits all over the world and in most major markets. That’s 2008-2017 where she had consistently decent sized hits.

It’s almost like after the 2000s when I commonly saw people saying Usher’s career was a fluke that fell off after Confessions. Were “8701” and “My Way” not eras also with notable success? And did “Here I Stand” despite being a big decline not also even have various hits including a #1?

His 1997-2008 was similar to her 2008-2017 now that I think about it, so that’s why I’m confused with Paula comparisons because I definitely wouldn’t have considered that run for Usher similar to Paula either.

Well, I think a lot of people were looking for a woman-to-woman comparison, which is why someone like Usher wasn't mentioned (and is also partly why I brought Boyz II Men into the discussion).

Usher is another one that could work in a general sense (both had 3 albums that had multiple big hits, followed by more sporadic hitmaking), but I do think Usher's post-Confessions success is much greater than Perry's post-Prism success. I'd argue "Love In This Club," "DJ Got Us Falling in Love," "OMG," "Without You," etc were all much bigger than anything Perry released post-"Dark Horse" (at least in the U.S.). Perhaps one reason for that is Usher did successfully change his sound and adapt to what was going on generally in music. It meant he became less of an album/era artist, but he maintained his hitmaking status for almost 10 years post-Confessions.

[GW]

I personally think that if iTunes had never been a thing, Teenage Dream would have been a much bigger seller. Not Thriller massive, but it would have sold far more than it did in the digital and TEA/SEA era. Same goes for her contemporaries with "strings of hits" from their relatively mid-selling albums on varying levels. The ability to download (let alone stream) individual tracks was an album killer, especially for pop artists with primarily younger demos.

That said, blockbuster sales for white pop girls who skew younger are never going to be as big as blockbuster sales for artists who have broader reach, like Michael Jackson, Usher, and Whitney Houston. They all have a huge crossover consumer appeal that Katy was never going to have.

[iHype.]

Sept 26, 2024 10:13:13 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Sept 26, 2024 10:05:34 GMT -5 iHype. said:

Oh I agree the comparisons really are all subjective and nobody is going to universally agree.

I just think it’s interesting people keep reinforcing Teenage Dream as just one imperial album for her and that’s it. Yes it’s her most successful album, but she had 2 other objectively very successful albums and even in 2017 she had “Chained” and “Feels” that year which were top 10 hits all over the world and in most major markets. That’s 2008-2017 where she had consistently decent sized hits.

It’s almost like after the 2000s when I commonly saw people saying Usher’s career was a fluke that fell off after Confessions. Were “8701” and “My Way” not eras also with notable success? And did “Here I Stand” despite being a big decline not also even have various hits including a #1?

His 1997-2008 was similar to her 2008-2017 now that I think about it, so that’s why I’m confused with Paula comparisons because I definitely wouldn’t have considered that run for Usher similar to Paula either.

Well, I think a lot of people were looking for a woman-to-woman comparison, which is why someone like Usher wasn't mentioned (and is also partly why I brought Boyz II Men into the discussion).

Usher is another one that could work in a general sense (both had 3 albums that had multiple big hits, followed by more sporadic hitmaking), but I do think Usher's post-Confessions success is much greater than Perry's post-Prism success. I'd argue "Love In This Club," "DJ Got Us Falling in Love," "OMG," "Without You," etc were all much bigger than anything Perry released post-"Dark Horse" (at least in the U.S.). Perhaps one reason for that is Usher did successfully change his sound and adapt to what was going on generally in music. It meant he became less of an album/era artist, but he maintained his hitmaking status for almost 10 years post-Confessions.

Usher’s overall longevity and post-Confessions success definitely far outweighs Katy and in totality I don’t think their US careers are comparable. But Usher’s standing after “Here I Stand” definitely reminds me of Katy in the sense that people tried to begin rewriting their history and reducing their career to being big for 1 album.

Paula is really more similar to someone like Ashanti/Meghan Trainor/Kesha instead of a Katy to me. Those are ones you could argue really had a big debut, the initial goodwill/hype carried into the second era, but by the end of second era there was not much left for them in mainstream Pop.

[sayhey]

Sept 26, 2024 9:30:47 GMT -5 iHype. said:

Sept 26, 2024 7:32:56 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Olivia Newton-John never had one big 'era' apart from Grease,

A whole seperate discussion but current idea of eras wasn’t really even a thing until after her run though to be frank. It wasn’t until the mid 80s when albums began having 3+ big hits commonly. There was a a few rare outliers prior, but after Thriller is I think what changed the normal album cycle. All the Beatles, Elvis, Aretha, etc albums from 70s and earlier would have like 2 singles then they’d move onto the next album months later. Even some of the most iconic albums would have like maybe 3 hit singles then after that the era was ended or had minor singles.

And funnily enough I also think Teenage Dream is moreso distinctively seen as “one huge era” in retrospect with Pop fanatics. I don’t think it was looked at much as so back then. She was never considered an album artist during the time and I think to even many Pop consumers they just assumed she released a bunch of hits for a few years straight but they didn’t pin them directly to one album/project. Rihanna is the same too but an even better example probably because she released albums so constantly the eras would begin to truly bleed into one another. Ariana’s 2010s run is probably another example.

Basically what I’m saying is Teenage Dream was never a phenomenon individually like Confessions, Thriller, The Bodyguard, etc and sold huge amounts. It just had a big string of hits that individually did well like a Rihanna or Ariana album.

I think many would just see Katy as a consistent hitmaker for a decade or so then fell off.

Absolutely agree with this and there was a similar discussion pertaining to this topic in another thread some weeks back. Thriller was indeed the first record to have such a long promotional campaign with its 7 top 10s. Before its 1982 release, hit albums were promoted by one big lead single and one or two follow-ups. Albums like Donna Summer's Bad Girls, which spawned 2 #1s and a #2 were huge outliers, as was Michael's own Off The Wall, which, aside from its 2 #1s, spawned a further two top 10 hits. Other examples of "long" pre-1982 eras were KC and the Sunshine Band who released two consecutive disco albums with 2 #1s (their 3d album yielding an additional third #2 hit) and of course the Bee Gees with SNF and SHF, both of which produced 3 #1s. Still, those albums had short promotional campaigns overall, with their singles being released in quick succession. IMO, Thriller changed that because it was the first album that truly exploited the power of MTV as a promotional tool for its singles, thus extending the commercial lives of both singles and albums. Right after that landmark era, artists like Madonna and Cyndi Lauper followed his lead to also become early MTV darlings, releasing multiple hit singles/videos per album, thus completing the industry's transformation by the mid-80s, which led to the great eras of the 2d part of the decade with the multiple #1s from Whitney, George Michael, Paula, Janet Jackson etc. So yeah, Olivia's hit country albums of the mid-70s and her pop records of the late 70s and early 80s had proper promotional runs for their eras and should be considered as proper hits imo.  

As for how the GP views big pop eras in general, I also agree. Most blockbuster pop albums aren't remembered by the public as distinct projects but as collections of well-known hits. If we were to ask the GP to list albums by known artists that are commercially noteworthy, few would be able to actually name them, let alone name their respective singles. On the other hand, the GP would easily name well-known pop hits. Classic albums that are actually known by the GP are very few, really and that's not just the case for the dance/pop/R&B/soul genres, I'd say it's also the case for rock and hip-hop albums etc. Such records would include Abbey Road, SPLHCB, TDSOTM, Thriller, Nevermind and maybe Rumours, Grease and SNF. These albums are very representative of their respective musical and cultural eras and most have extremely iconic and memorable covers.

[Baby Yoda Hot100Fan]

kworb's Billboard Radio Songs Estimates « 2024 » / « 09 » / « 26 »

1(=) Shaboozey - A Bar Song (Tipsy) 93.98(+0.55)
2(=) Post Malone - I Had Some Help (feat. Morgan Wallen) 76.42(-0.52)
3(=) Sabrina Carpenter - Espresso 69.53(-0.10) +
4(=) Hozier - Too Sweet 64.44(-0.09)

5(=) Teddy Swims - Lose Control 57.10(-0.18)
6(=) Billie Eilish - BIRDS OF A FEATHER 56.71(-0.15)
7(=) Kendrick Lamar - Not Like Us 53.36(-0.43)
8(=) Chappell Roan - Good Luck, Babe! 52.04(-0.44) +
9(=) Sabrina Carpenter - Please Please Please 51.36(+0.07) +
10(=) Dasha - Austin (Boots Stop Workin') 49.64(-0.08)

40(+4) The Weeknd - Dancing In The Flames 19.89(+0.73)

47(+1) Myles Smith - Stargazing 18.68(+0.74)

-(-) Future - TOO FAST 6.13(+0.80)

[Ling-Ling]

Sept 26, 2024 9:55:54 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

Which is why the Paula one worked.

I know Pulsers love making comparisons across artists from different time periods, but there’s never going to be one that lines up perfectly and I don’t know why people insist on making it so. For me, when I think of the Paula comparison, it’s clearly around the drop-off from being an A-list hitmaker to suddenly not. Most artists have a gradual drop-off and both of those didn’t. It was sudden. Now, you can say Katy had a longer and larger peak than Paula, sure, but comparative to their generations, Paula dominated for several years and then fell off. Katy dominated for several years and fell off. Is a comparison needed? Nah. Does it matter? Not even. But it helps when discussing what happened, what could be and making a case for what Katy’s next steps could be based on what has happened before. Katy could very well be a Cyndi Lauper. Cyndi didn’t have as long a success-period or as many hits but for a brief period (shorter than both Paula and Katy), she was massive and fell off quickly. But she managed to sustain her career in other ways. Maybe Katy might follow that trajectory. Or maybe Dua is this generation’s Cyndi. All in all, it literally doesn’t matter and is purely 100% completely for discussionary points and really nothing more substantial beyond that.

Yeah, I agree with this. Paula is easily the best comparison. It doesn't need to line up perfectly with eras/singles. Both huge pop stars for a short period of time with blockbuster eras, both derided for their vocals, both well known for videos/visuals, both limited to pop music with no attempt at diversifying (until forced to judge singing competitions). And most importantly, neither were taken seriously as artists. Not by critics or audiences. And that's key, that was as much a part of their downfall as anything else.

[jenglisbe]

"A Bar Song" has had positive airplay updates for at least the past 3 days. Where is it now increasing, and doing so enough to more than compensate for its losses?!

:ETA: Wait, both "A Bar Song" and "Espresso" are still increasing at Pop?! FFS lol.

[Baby Yoda Hot100Fan]

^It is still rising in Pop Airplay and AC.

[shakemaki]

Usher kept scoring big hits for far too long to be a good parallel to Katy. His success really only stopped when he stopped making music outright. And now that he’s back, it’s simply been too long, and he’s too old to be that kind of hitmaker anymore.

And comparisons to the likes of Ashanti or Meghan Trainor for Paula are ridiculous and proving that people aren’t understanding how huge her first two eras were for their day. Very much parallel the Teenage Dream and Prism eras respectively, once again why that whole comparison has been brought up in the first place.

[Az Paynter]

'Again', not 'still'. Both 'Espresso' and 'A Bar Song' had peaked and were losing spins until this week, inexplicably, they're gaining again (and actually, this is at least the second time 'Espresso' got another shot of caffeine).

[shakemaki]

One other quick note on Paula is that her quitting music after her third album leaves a lot up in the air as far as what might have been. There’s no reason to think that once upbeat pop music exploded again in the late 90s, she couldn’t have had some kind of comeback with good material. Hell, if Cher could, why on earth would Paula not have at least been a possibility?

[Skibidi Bop Bop]

The Black Eyed Peas are a more accurate comparison to Katy Perry than everyone realizes. 👁️‍🗨️

[kcdawg13]

Sept 26, 2024 15:19:11 GMT -5 Skibidi Bop Bop said:

The Black Eyed Peas are a more accurate comparison to Katy Perry than everyone realizes. 👁️‍🗨️

Yeah their commercial peak lines up perfectly with Katy Perry's, 8 years. First big hit in '03 and last big hit in '11 and then they went away, same deal with Katy pretty much. Her last Top 10 hit was 9 years after her first, if you wanted to argue NRO as a hit since it reached #15 then you could still make the BEP comparison since Will.I.Am had a big hit 10 years after his first with Scream & Shout.

[kcdawg13]

Sept 26, 2024 13:46:48 GMT -5 shakemaki said:

One other quick note on Paula is that her quitting music after her third album leaves a lot up in the air as far as what might have been. There’s no reason to think that once upbeat pop music exploded again in the late 90s, she couldn’t have had some kind of comeback with good material. Hell, if Cher could, why on earth would Paula not have at least been a possibility?

Sorry for double posting but I gotta say something real quick, in regards to Paula I think Soundscan wrecked many careers. Everyone points to grunge and gangsta rap for destroying pop in the early 90s but Soundscan was a big factor in those genres becoming huge, this also includes country music which started selling big numbers again in 1992. What I'm getting at is that during the pre-Soundscan era, the late 80s most importantly there was many artists who were huge briefly, not one-hit wonders but artists who scored like 5-6 big singles over a several year span and then they suddenly vanished. These are artists like Tiffany, Debbie Gibson, Karyn White, Taylor Dayne, Roxette, Cathy Denis, the several hundred hair metal bands that cropped up between '88 and '91, etc. All these acts basically disappeared overnight after Soundscan became a thing and I think Paula should also be included in this conversation, her peak was much bigger than the artists I mentioned but I think the hype around her was mostly fueled by regular label fraud that was going in the pre-Soundscan era and she wasn't really that popular in the first place like her contemporaries like Madonna and Janet Jackson, which is why she flopped after her second album and I don't think she'd be big again if she was still making records in the pop comeback of the late 90s because she wasn't really that popular in the first place. My two cents.

[shakemaki]

So we are now boiling a massive era like Forever Your Girl down to label fraud? Good grief, I’ve never even been a Paula fan but I feel truly bad for how dismissed/forgotten her huge commercial peak seems to be now. Some of those songs are catchy as hell btw, especially Straight Up, Cold Hearted, and Opposites Attract. Just as catchy as any of the Teenage Dream hits. It’s far from a mystery to me why they would have blown up back then.

I actually think Rush Rush and The Promise of a New Day being irrefutable smash #1s at the time is a testament to how popular FYG did in fact make Paula. Because I gotta be honest, neither of those songs sound like the type to have ever been that big under normal circumstances. Not even mentioning the other 3 songs from that album that were respectable sized hits too at the time.

I’d even argue Straight Up and Cold Hearted (a #1 hit from this year and arguably the most famous drag race lip sync both say hi) have both in fact maintained a legacy of their own all this time later, much like at least a couple Katy smashes are likely to as well.

Now if the main argument was that Grunge likely played a big role in someone like Paula’s quick drop off, yes 100% of course it did. It was massive zeitgeist shift. Even more of a reason to believe Paula might have stood a chance in the late 90s when her brand of music came back in favor again if she had tried to make a go at it.

And as far as her never being MJ/Janet/Madonna/Mariah etc level as far as contemporaries that had massive eras like FYG, well obviously. Thats been part of the argument all along. Same as Katy is clearly not destined to be a Gaga/Adele/Taylor/Rihanna/Bruno etc level icon among her contemporaries.

A huge reason for that is because both Paula and Katy were never taken very seriously as artists and often accused of making disposable pop music made for the charts and nothing else. Neither had true vocal or song-making talent to fall back on either, so that hurt too. It’s yet again why this parallel between them was brought up.

[jdanton2]

Sept 26, 2024 15:44:33 GMT -5 kcdawg13 said:

Sept 26, 2024 13:46:48 GMT -5 shakemaki said:

One other quick note on Paula is that her quitting music after her third album leaves a lot up in the air as far as what might have been. There’s no reason to think that once upbeat pop music exploded again in the late 90s, she couldn’t have had some kind of comeback with good material. Hell, if Cher could, why on earth would Paula not have at least been a possibility?

Sorry for double posting but I gotta say something real quick, in regards to Paula I think Soundscan wrecked many careers. Everyone points to grunge and gangsta rap for destroying pop in the early 90s but Soundscan was a big factor in those genres becoming huge, this also includes country music which started selling big numbers again in 1992. What I'm getting at is that during the pre-Soundscan era, the late 80s most importantly there was many artists who were huge briefly, not one-hit wonders but artists who scored like 5-6 big singles over a several year span and then they suddenly vanished. These are artists like Tiffany, Debbie Gibson, Karyn White, Taylor Dayne, Roxette, Cathy Denis, the several hundred hair metal bands that cropped up between '88 and '91, etc. All these acts basically disappeared overnight after Soundscan became a thing and I think Paula should also be included in this conversation, her peak was much bigger than the artists I mentioned but I think the hype around her was mostly fueled by regular label fraud that was going in the pre-Soundscan era and she wasn't really that popular in the first place like her contemporaries like Madonna and Janet Jackson, which is why she flopped after her second album and I don't think she'd be big again if she was still making records in the pop comeback of the late 90s because she wasn't really that popular in the first place. My two cents.

regarding Soundscan and Paula it has been mentioned before that her final #1 song did alot worse of the the test charts Billboard was publishing before they became official in November of 1991. on the Hot 100 chart of September 14th Paula was #1 with Promise Of A New Day but on the test charts it was #5 on the Top 40 Radio Monitor chart and #25 on the POS Single Sales chart .also back then formats like Country and R&B were not included so it's radio numbers would have been alot lower if they had been.

[shakemaki]

It’s also interesting to note the gap between Paula’s 2nd and 3rd albums in relation to the gap between Prism and Witness. 4 years was simply too long in Paula’s case if she cared about maintaining momentum at all. Katy released 2 new smash hits in the 3 year interim between TD and Prism, so in essence she never really took a break there. The first time she did, she came back to a massive drop off in popularity, same as Paula did.

[85la]

Does anyone know how Ava Max's Spot A Fake has been doing? Did it make any of the streaming charts the first couple of days, or iTunes? Might it make the Bubbling Under? Speaking of a generic pop queen who's fallen out of the limelight. Of course she was never nearly as big as Katy, but for the small amount of hits she's had, they've been steadily declining since her breakout with Sweet But Psycho a few years ago. I mean I love her, but she's never someone who would last very long. At this point, it's almost up for grabs which one of their songs will perform better.

[jodakyellow]

Sept 26, 2024 15:44:33 GMT -5 kcdawg13 said:

Sorry for double posting but I gotta say something real quick, in regards to Paula I think Soundscan wrecked many careers. Everyone points to grunge and gangsta rap for destroying pop in the early 90s but Soundscan was a big factor in those genres becoming huge, this also includes country music which started selling big numbers again in 1992.

I don't think Soundscan made those genres huge... Those genres were huge but the industry didn't recognize them as such until Soundscan quantified it.

[jenglisbe]

Sept 26, 2024 17:29:06 GMT -5 shakemaki said:

It’s also interesting to note the gap between Paula’s 2nd and 3rd albums in relation to the gap between Prism and Witness. 4 years was simply too long in Paula’s case if she cared about maintaining momentum at all. Katy released 2 new smash hits in the 3 year interim between TD and Prism, so in essence she never really took a break there. The first time she did, she came back to a massive drop off in popularity, same as Paula did.

But in this Katy/Paula discussion, I don't understand why One of the Boys keeps getting ignored. Katy had a #1 hit and two other top 10s off that album. It was a very successful album that set up Teenage Dream for its success.